Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Aug 23, 2022 14:18:36 GMT
When the Celestis where destroyed by the Memevore do you think it was possible that one somehow escaped. Weather it was self aware or not is a different question, but do you a chunk of one or even a whole Celestis could have survived the destruction of Mictlan either by being outside of it at the time, or by slipping away like the shift did in a Timeship? Or perhaps one of the Blackbox Timeships did escape? Or an investigator with a chunk of its master lodged inside of its biodata for safe keeping?
I myself doubt that one could but in the back of my mind their has always been that idea could one have escaped of not. And if so what did it become mutate into without the attachment of its home realm?
also another little question what do you think became of One and the Hermit?
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 23, 2022 16:45:25 GMT
also another little question what do you think became of One and the Hermit?
As for what happened to him, who knows… Last we saw him, he was starting to lose his grip on physical reality. He was quite cross with the Great Houses, as well.
In the Rivera Manuscript, a certain Renegade of the Great Houses is walked through a praxis trip by an entity who goes by “One”.
It's pretty clear that this ‘One’ is an Enemy Representative. But…
Hang on now, the full point of the Enemy using representatives is so it doesn't have to show itself in its incomprehensible non-physical glory, yes? Why is this Rep described in such puzzling, eldritch-sounding terms — humanoid but “non-carbon”? Could it be we are dealing with good old Investigator One, now gone over to the Enemy's side, and who, as seen at the end of TToP5, retains a humanoid form but is no longer really a physical entity? I think so!
But, of course, there are two Sabbaths, so who knows… The events surrounding the writing of the Manuscript clearly took place before the Fall of Mictlan as far as the wider War is concerned, so you'd have to accept that One's joining of the Enemy entailed breaking the Protocols of Linearity. Seems plausible enough to me, but mileages may vary.
…
As for the Hermit, I seem to recall something about him starting a Buddhist meditation centre in England, and helping the Third Doctor with his regeneration there. But hang on, that can't be right, can it? The Third Doctor regenerated on Dust. Funny how the memory cheats. |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Aug 23, 2022 17:03:55 GMT
Hang on now, the full point of the Enemy using representatives is so it doesn't have to show itself in its incomprehensible non-physical glory, yes? Why is this Rep described in such puzzling, eldritch-sounding terms — humanoid but “non-carbon”? Could it be we are dealing with good old Investigator One, now gone over to the Enemy's side, and who, as seen at the end of TToP5, retains a humanoid form but is no longer really a physical entity? I think so!
You raise an interesting point, I met self fell into the Classic trap of taking the book of the War at face value. But how do you believe that this links to the mentions of “One” in the Pre narrative briefings in the Book of the Enemy specifically the one about the Book of Lies, namely this quote “One does not love or hate: One is not a person nor a gestalt.” The Fact that explicitly One dose not Hate bit I find contradicts the mention of One in the Book of the War where it mentions nearing the end of the Manuscript when it starts to get garbled, “why does it hate us?” also would the Not a person nor a gestalt be referring to the fact that One is a conceptual entity a loving idea? Would that work? |
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 23, 2022 17:17:00 GMT
I must admit I wasn't especially accounting for the Book of the Enemy quote. First because it's from a book literally called the Book of Lies; second because the authorial intent in the Obverse era is not always the same as the old Mad Norwegian master-plan anyway; and third, because I'm not sure it's actually about the same One who's in the Rivera Manuscript, whatever the Tardis Wiki tells you. There's also the “One” that President Umbaste gibbered about to consider. I'm not at all sure that has anything to do with the Rivera guy, whether or not he's the Investigator. Maybe the Book of Lies is talking about that much less personable “one”. But actually… How do you believe that this links to the mentions of “One” in the Pre-narrative briefings in the Book of the Enemy, specifically the one about the Book of Lies, namely this quote: “One does not love or hate: One is not a person nor a gestalt.” The fact that explicitly One dose not Hate bit, I find contradicts the mention of One in the Book of the War where it mentions nearing the end of the Manuscript when it starts to get garbled, “why does it hate us?”. That one's quite easy. “ Why does it hate us?” is a question the prisoner asks One about the Enemy, not a question about One. It is in fact the obvious thing that the D… that an imprisoned Renegade would ask a Rep at this stage: this Enemy you serve, why does it hate us Time Lords? One needn't share the Enemy's hatred to answer questions about it, or even to serve the Enemy. And… Also would the “Not a person nor a gestalt” be referring to the fact that One is a conceptual entity, a living idea? Would that work? …yes, that would work quite well, as a matter of fact. Alien Bodies directly suggests that a living idea like a Shift isn't exactly “a person”. That being said, I think I'm just being clever, there. This sort of cryptic “Not a person nor a gestalt” statement has “non-hint about the nature of the Enemy” painted on it in big red letters. It's precisely what makes me suspect that The Book of the Enemy is talking about Umbaste's incomprehensible “One”, not about the Rivera Manuscript One/Investigator One. Note that in this view, “One does not love or hate” would still be a reference to the Rivera Manuscript, in a different way: it would be rubbing in that by assuming the Enemy “hated” the Houses and asking “why”, the prisoner was asking the wrong question! |
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Post by doctornolonger on Aug 23, 2022 17:29:28 GMT
But surely Umbaste's incomprehensible One is the Rivera Manuscript One, regardless of their relationship with the Investigator…
Regarding the hermit, I still think a connection with the Doctor's mentor is a bit too easy. There was lots of speculation on RADW that it was a red herring (or intended as a parallel, rather than a direct connection: see the bit about the young outcast Celestis in the prologue); that his surgery on the universe connects him with the Advanced Research Project; that he's a fellow of Saldaamir and Daniel Joyce in preparing the "Next Universe". That's certainly an understudied part of the War – albeit relevant only to its Who depiction, BBV's revival of rejected BotW entries notwithstanding.
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 23, 2022 17:37:59 GMT
But surely Umbaste's incomprehensible One is the Rivera Manuscript One, regardless of their relationship with the Investigator… I say no! Umbaste was reduced to a gibbering wreck by whatever made him say “One” over and over. (It's not even necessarily a name.) It's clearly something directly related to the central essence of the Enemy, or something equally mind-bending. By contrast, the “One” in the Manuscript is someone capable of standing in a corner and being asked sensible questions. And we're told directly that the Enemy itself wasn't physically present in the prisoner's cell, just its representatives. There could still be a connection between them, of course. For instance, it's possible, if you reject the Investigator!One=Rivera!One identification, to propose that the person standing in a corner in the Rivera Manuscript is some Rep whose actual designation we don't know, but who is acting so thoroughly as a conduit for the Enemy that it's being referred to by the Enemy's “name,” “One”. But Umbaste and the prisoner saw very different critters, I'm certain of that much. Regarding the hermit, I still think a connection with the Doctor's mentor is a bit too easy. There was lots of speculation on RADW that it was a red herring (or intended as a parallel, rather than a direct connection: see the bit about the young outcast Celestis in the prologue); that his surgery on the universe connects him with the Advanced Research Project; that he's a fellow of Saldaamir and Daniel Joyce in preparing the "Next Universe". Why not both? Surely running a meditation center didn't take up all of the fellow's time. Preparing for a new, better, more transcendent version of reality is in fact sort of what a Buddhist meditation center is all about, isn't it? |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Aug 23, 2022 17:41:04 GMT
I must admit I wasn't especially accounting for the Book of the Enemy quote. First because it's from a book literally called the Book of Lies; second because the authorial intent in the Obverse era is not always the same as the old Mad Norwegian master-plan anyway; and third, because I'm not sure it's actually about the same One who's in the Rivera Manuscript, whatever the Tardis Wiki tells you. There's also the “One” that President Umbaste gibbered about to consider. I'm not at all sure that has anything to do with the Rivera guy, whether or not he's the Investigator. Maybe the Book of Lies is talking about that much less personable “one”. But actually… How do you believe that this links to the mentions of “One” in the Pre-narrative briefings in the Book of the Enemy, specifically the one about the Book of Lies, namely this quote: “One does not love or hate: One is not a person nor a gestalt.” The fact that explicitly One dose not Hate bit, I find contradicts the mention of One in the Book of the War where it mentions nearing the end of the Manuscript when it starts to get garbled, “why does it hate us?”. That one's quite easy. “ Why does it hate us?” is a question the prisoner asks One about the Enemy, not a question about One. It is in fact the obvious thing that the D… that an imprisoned Renegade would ask a Rep at this stage: this Enemy you serve, why does it hate us Time Lords? One needn't share the Enemy's hatred to answer questions about it, or even to serve the Enemy. And… Also would the “Not a person nor a gestalt” be referring to the fact that One is a conceptual entity, a living idea? Would that work? …yes, that would work quite well, as a matter of fact. Alien Bodies directly suggests that a living idea like a Shift isn't exactly “a person”. That being said, I think I'm just being clever, there. This sort of cryptic “Not a person nor a gestalt” statement has “non-hint about the nature of the Enemy” painted on it in big red letters. It's precisely what makes me suspect that The Book of the Enemy is talking about Umbaste's incomprehensible “One”, not about the Rivera Manuscript One/Investigator One. Note that in this view, “One does not love or hate” would still be a reference to the Rivera Manuscript, in a different way: it would be rubbing in that by assuming the Enemy “hated” the Houses and asking “why”, the prisoner was asking the wrong question! In regards to the Book of Lies being a Book full of lies it may not be, Unnatural History give several possibilities one that he’s it is a book full of lies and another which suggests that the only Lies are the title and the fact the claims that it is lying are lies if only those possibilities guarded a road then I could ask one what the other one would say was the safe road. (Who knows perhaps if I asked the Faction to set this up they would? Of course knowing them they would add 210 extra options). now back to the main topic you suggest the the one of the Manuscript and the one Umbaste talk about are not the same. Which is something I had not considered (once more falling into the same trap, and with the same thing as well, I am disappointed in myself, I and usually rather better at that) but you mentioned that One(from tToP5) was becoming far more unnatural and whilst looking human gave of an aura of otherness. Perhaps at some point at the far end of the War (well should it have one) One became far more than an idea, however I have now moved into the realm of pure speculation and you yourself mentioned they could be the same but that you yourself do not consider Umbaste’s one and the manuscript one to be the same. |
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Post by doctornolonger on Aug 23, 2022 17:50:07 GMT
The Book of Lies certainly isn't all lies, given how accurately it described Rassilon's meddling in history through the Doctor.
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 23, 2022 17:53:27 GMT
In regards to the Book of Lies being a Book full of lies it may not be, Unnatural History give several possibilities one that he’s it is a book full of lies and another which suggests that the only Lies are the title and the fact the claims that it is lying. The Book of Lies certainly isn't all lies, given how accurately it described Rassilon's meddling in history through the Doctor. Yes, yes — I was joking, a little. But I do humbly suggest that we should not take books written by Faction Paradox too literally, particularly when they're playing mind-games about whether or not they're full of lies. Yes, we have reliable evidence that a lot of the book's contents are true. The next question is why the Faction (the Faction!) would create a book full of true things. One answer might be that they had some actual outrageous lies they wanted to feed to us, and they buried them amidst a bunch of real but minor secrets, and they called the whole thing the “Book of Lies” so that the people committing to taking it as gospel would feel very clever and not question the shakier bits. Regarding the Eight Doctors business, for example… yes, yes, Rassilon did meddle, and the Book is probably telling the truth about its motives. But making a deal with the “Devil”? Learning the ways of “Paradox”? Really? It should be remembered that the Faction were nowhere in evidence in that book. Well-hidden tracks, maybe. But the Faction have a track record with creating historical accounts full of half-truths, where they claim that Rassilon goes around asking them for advice. Interference has a few things to say about that. |
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Post by doctornolonger on Aug 23, 2022 17:58:21 GMT
I could say the same about The Book of the War and its interpretation of Umbaste's supposed fate as a gibbering wreck! Remember in Labyrinths of History we hear that the secret minutes of House Dvora contain a revelation about "who killed Lord Umbaste"!
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 23, 2022 18:04:34 GMT
I could say the same about The Book of the War and its interpretation of Umbaste's supposed fate as a gibbering wreck! Remember in Labyrinths of History we hear that the secret minutes of House Dvora contain a revelation about "who killed Lord Umbaste"! Could be. Previously I'd assumed that the gibbering was real, and the secret minutes simply concerned the practical-minded assassination of a useless President whose loyalties could no longer be relied on, with the assent of the rest of the Presidency. Your idea makes sense too — but then, if we accept that perhaps Umbaste's reaction to “One” wasn't quite so extreme, there's no reason to think he didn't meet the turncoat Investigator after all! Perhaps the assassination was not an internal affair; perhaps the terrible truth the cover-up intended to conceal was that the Homeworld had lost another President to Enemy killers. If the assassin was a future version of a man who was, at this point in the timeline, still a loyal C.I.A. Investigator, there are obvious temporal reasons for covering up his identity. (If One is the killer's name, and not that of whatever was inside the sun, this leaves us with even less data on that little pickle than we thought we had. This makes me strangely happy.) |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Aug 23, 2022 18:28:06 GMT
(If One is the killer's name, and not that of whatever was inside the sun, this leaves us with even less data on that little pickle than we thought we had. This makes me strangely happy.) You mention the sun in regards to One, is this in reference to the Black fireballs which come from the sky in the Manuscript? And thus are you implying a link between the Order of the Black Sun/ Black Sun Brigade (who according to interference where manipulated or created by the Faction, but latter the idea was that they where somehow linked to the sceanshifters in the Enemy of my Enemy is my Enemy) or am I just over extrapolating. also I to do enjoy the little puzzles and contradictions within Faction Paradox. |
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 23, 2022 19:41:44 GMT
You mention the sun in regards to One, is this in reference to the Black fireballs which come from the sky in the Manuscript? It isn't, actually; it's in reference to the mystery of What Is Inside The Homeworld's Sun, which is what (allegedly?) sent Umbaste into his "One"-gibbering mental crisis, and something that the eminently-rational Thessalia also thought worth investigating. The thrust of the relevant BotW passage has led many to suppose that Umbaste's ”One” is the name of, or relates to, that selfsame Thing Within The Sun. Mind you, it could be related to the whole Black Sun motif, which is certainly sometimes about the Enemy. But that wasn't my point. |
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Athenodora
Little Sibling
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Post by Athenodora on Aug 24, 2022 16:46:46 GMT
Why not both? Surely running a meditation center didn't take up all of the fellow's time. Preparing for a new, better, more transcendent version of reality is in fact sort of what a Buddhist meditation center is all about, isn't it? Well, it'd depend on what kind of Buddhist meditation center it is - what parts of Buddhism's vast numbers of traditions/branches/schools/practices it focuses on can make a big difference. For example, imagine something that focuses on these two quotes from the Wikipedia article on Pure Land Buddhism: (Okay, real talk time: obviously these very much are two passages cherry-picked from the Wikipedia page. Please don't take this post as a meaningful representation of real Pure Land Buddhism in any way lol)
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PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
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Post by PI9090 on Aug 25, 2022 14:38:36 GMT
It isn't, actually; it's in reference to the mystery of What Is Inside The Homeworld's Sun, which is what (allegedly?) sent Umbaste into his "One"-gibbering mental crisis, and something that the eminently-rational Thessalia also thought worth investigating. The thrust of the relevant BotW passage has led many to suppose that Umbaste's ”One” is the name of, or relates to, that selfsame Thing Within The Sun. Was it? I'd have to check .T.B.o.t.W. but I'm sure whatever reduced Umbaste to a gibbering mess wasn't mentioned just that something happened/he may of seen something in the Caldera, (which the War King tried to stop him doing) and not linked to the Riveria Manuscript's, "One" which is probably more of an enemy representative/spokesman* much like there was when the Celestis made a deal with the Doctor. There's a danger in trying to connect things because there the only things we know. Plus using an Celestis agent doesn't fit with the enemy as there's no need for a subterfuge of a Celestis follower seeking revenge and they can kill Timelord Presidents in much more direct and frightening methods. *Perhaps either: 1.The enemy itself in a vague humanoid form given the Eye of Harmony's proximity, (it does try not to break the laws of physics no doubt for it's reps's sake). Given their known capabilities why would the enemy need reps? Also it is the doctor who could be the biggest threat to them so they show some respect? Alien Bodies has the enemy physically there seemingly enjoying 8's predicament so it's not unprecedented. 2.An Emperor's Voice like mouthpiece. The enemy uses the black sun motif because it's a known symbolism of two of the Timelord's enemy, (and another reason if my theory is right). Maybe the weapons in the Riveria manuscript are described black suns because the Doctor as a Timelord associates them with an enemy force and the interrogator and or One took advantage of it? Previously I'd assumed that the gibbering was real, and the secret minutes simply concerned the practical-minded assassination of a useless President whose loyalties could no longer be relied on, with the ascent of the rest of the Presidency. This is what I thought and prefer, given how the Timelords like to, "adjust the truth" of their history especially the deaths of higher ups, (remember Goth officially died heroically in crossfire rather then having the Master fry his brains out). the idea a President could be murdered with the High Council's agreement would be alot more shocking to most of Gallifrey, (if no one else, remember politicking and thus intrigue is still, "new" to them at this point) then death by an enemy already known to be capable of killing Presidents in impossible ways. |
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