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Post by doctornolonger on Aug 25, 2022 16:25:39 GMT
You mention the sun in regards to One, is this in reference to the Black fireballs which come from the sky in the Manuscript? I wrote the Tumblr post, so here's my understanding: there are three pieces, connected through the Rivera Manuscript. 1. One- When Umbaste looks into the caldera, he repeats "One" over and over. (The secret minutes of House Dvora hint foul play in his death.)
- The Book of Lies says, "One does not love or hate: One is not a person nor a gestalt."
2. Something in the sun- Just before she dies, Chatelaine Thessalia warns the High Council to analyze the sun.
3. The bottle- In both Alien Bodies and Dead Romance, ghosts are seen to deliver the message, "We are all in the bottle and one day the bottle will break."
- Also all the other stuff in Interference and Dead Romance about bottle universes. Maybe relevant I guess.
Tying it together: The Rivera ManuscriptThe Doctor A renegade is tortured by "humanoids, a non-carbon presence and something the prisoner names as the first, the many and the indivisible (this may be a bad translation)."- Later in a vision, the prisoner finds himself "in the vicinity [of] someone referred to as “One”… At this point in the typed manuscript, a number of words have been struck through or inked over, suggesting a difficulty with the translation. Other asides in the manuscript seem to be interpolations about – or directed at – “One”. The most coherent says, simply: ‘why does it hate us?’"
- "There are a number of discrete sequences, including […] another apparently set inside the Homeworld's sun."
- The appendix ends with lines from "a conversation between the prisoner and “One”", including ‘Inside the skin of the sun / It’s an option / … / You keep the sun / In a bottle / You want to know what happens if you lose control / Don’t you?’
The Rivera Manuscript is the lynchpin here. If the sun bottle is different from the bottle mentioned in the Relic's ghost warning, then the Relic's warning has no connection to these throughlines. And if One from the manuscript is different from Umbaste's One, there's no connection between Umbaste and the sun. |
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Anastasia
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Post by Anastasia on Aug 25, 2022 16:32:25 GMT
The enemy uses the black sun motif because it's a known symbolism of two of the Timelord's enemy, (and another reason if my theory is right). Maybe the weapons in the Riveria manuscript are described black suns because the Doctor as a Timelord associates them with an enemy force and the interrogator and or One took advantage of it? Lawrence Miles in his book Implied that the Great Black Eye Which watches over the Post-War History was in fact (forgive the use of a DW a term) the Remains of the Eye of Harmony (or maybe the Enemy’s Eye) which is worshiped by the Mal’akh from the Kingdom of the Beasts (which possibly has something to do with Cernnonus). However their may be several Great Black Eyes which watch over history in the Post-War Universe, namely the Master from with in the Eye of Harmony, as you mentioned the Daleks (who are not the Enemy in the War) the destroyed Eye of Harmony. However the Black Sun motif within the War seems to link to the Order of the Black Sun as you said however the mentions of hem where put into an equivalent of Allan Moor who the Sceneshifers (who may only possibly be the Enemy) shifted his time line so he was not called Allan Moor and still wrote that story for Mister E (a stand in for Doctor Who magazine) meaning we must now enter the Metafictional arena of the War and can not look at it simply as an entirely in universe conflict as our perception of events from our real universe can alter events within universe (namely authors and how everyone takes a different meaning from the texts) thus the identity of the Enemy is not a simple as a purely in universe force we the reader may be the Enemy (I am not saying we are I am just saying that it is one possibility) and the Black Sun Reference may Imply that Allan Moor is as Much The Enemy as the Sceanshifers seeing as they inspired the creation of the War by creating the first written Temporal War. |
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 25, 2022 18:17:42 GMT
?nastasia, I think you have the potential Order of the Black Sun connection on backwards. I think we should, contra real-world chronology, take connections of the Enemy to an actual Black Sun (or Suns), as being what the Order of the Black Sun named themselves for; not as a hint that the Order are behind the Enemy!
Nate, I'd never thought to connect the "bottle will break" prophecy to the "Keep the Sun in a bottle" line in the Manuscript in this way. I would be surprised if there were no connection at all, but I think it is clear, from the prophecy's presence in Dead Romance of all books, that “The bottle will break” concerns the bottle universes, not whatever is meant by the idea that the Sun is kept inside a bottle. (Unless… unless… I have an idea there, can you guess what it is from our recent off-Forum conversations?) You do make a compelling case that Umbaste's mutterings of “One” and the Manuscript's “One” might be related, but I am also noticing that it is less clear than I thought that “One” is directly the name/coordinates/??? of What Is Inside The Sun… so I'm afraid I'm not yet leaving the hobby-horse that One is the Investigator-turned-Rep. Perhaps, just like the Doctor, Umbaste's dream-quest through the caldera, during which he glimpsed the contents of the Sun, featured “One” as a spirit-guide, and his gibbering is calling out his guide's name, desperate to ask him more?
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Anastasia
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Post by Anastasia on Aug 25, 2022 18:56:04 GMT
?nastasia, I think you have the potential Order of the Black Sun connection on backwards. I think we should, contra real-world chronology, take connections of the Enemy to an actual Black Sun (or Suns), as being what the Order of the Black Sun named themselves for; not as a hint that the Order are behind the Enemy! I may I was not saying the order where behind the Enemy I was saying (I think) that the Order and the Enemy had some kind of relation as the Enemy manipulated Allen Moor (or prepares Allan Moor manipulated the Enemy and the Enemy then retro attacked him so he was never Allan Moor?) to suggest the Order of the Black Sun. and the sceneshifers may in the end have nothing to do with the Enemy or exist simply as a metaphor for the Enemy or be employed by the Enemy??? But either way Allan Moor is somehow involved with the Enemy in so convoluted way, as like I said he created the idea of a Time War. So perhaps by writing the War the Writers are a potential candidate for the Enemy yet also may be told of the Enemy or the Enemy are their tools? I don’t know I am lost in my own arguments and confused by them. This always happens when ever I try and work out the Enemy’s identity (most of the time I just take it as they just are and don’t worry about their identity yet sometimes I will try and answer a question and then the fact that we don’t know (or do we?) the identity of the Enemy gets in the way.). Heck if you believe the Unnatural History, Infinity Doctor and one other short story (which the name escapes me right now) the Enemy could be the Palladian Hoards from the Doctor Who memo when they where still figuring out what the series was about (however this is just as likely as say T. Memeticus.) this is why I love Faction Paradox it makes me think in totally irrational patterns. and any way back to the mention of the Sun being in the Bottle could it be a reference to a star captured but the Great House’s founder? The Eye of the Great Houses? Or perhaps the Caldera? However I probably am wrong. |
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PI9090
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Post by PI9090 on Aug 26, 2022 23:50:56 GMT
The Great Black Eye list
(The Enemy of My Enemy is My Enemy and the Grant Morrison's Caniballistics Inc. comic story been left out because they are fun non serious meta twists on the whole thing that I normally ignore as an unnecessary overcomplication anyway).
Lawrence Miles novels
Henrietta Street
"a blazing star of pure darkness".
"an eye made out of pupils".
Post war corrupted Eye of Harmony in the Kingdom of Beasts.
Numerous 18th century sightings as the Kingdom of Beasts intersected humanity's noosphere.
Caused 8's second heart to start pumping him full of disease and darkness from the Kingdom of the Beasts.
Appeared at the 8th Doctor's wedding.
Appearance was informed by the 16th century alchemy black sun symbol for body dissolution.
The Aclchemcal, "Sun" glyph resembles a classic series Dalek eye.
Christmas on a Rational Planet
A black sun hing over areas of irrationality as the Carnival Queen tried to re establish the pre anchoring, "irrational" universe/reality.
Associated with, "irrationality". (Also mentioned in, "Crimes Against History").
Interference Book One
Unreliable, (Faction produced/biased) depiction of Rassilon's first attempt at creating the Eye of Harmony causing the First War in Heaven. The black hole the Yssgaroth first emerged from is called a black sun and othe sun turn black and become Yssgaroth portals.
Book of the War
Riveria manuscript: "supercharged chunks of the causal nexus itself", the enemy used against Gallifrey's noosphere resembled black fireballs.
Summary: Clear association with corruption by enemy powers and, "irrationality" with a cheeky alchemical hint of Dalek. "Dissolution of the body"? Represents erasure of something?
Other prose
Domino Effect
"like a hole in space, sucking light from eternity".
Sometime Never
"a spherical black eye, it's iris a white disk".
Note: Dalek.
Gallifrey Chronicles
It rules an alternity, the post war universe where Gallifrey was gone.
8 thought it was the Master.
Note: Maybe corruption by an enemy power? Odd thatthis book of all seems to agree withthe Miles interpretation.
The Year of the Tiger
"looked like an eye in reverse, blue pupil and black iris".
Note: Author seems to be simply playing with the eye visual.
History 101
A blazing eyes watched the destruction of the System as it blackened and fell into greyness.
Note: Author seems to be simply playing with the eye visual.
Sometime Never
Eye of a Dalek that: watched, waited, and plotted somewhere beyond the time vortex and the multiverse.
Note: Guess... yes it's a Dalek.
Comics
Do we count any other then Moore's and the Miranda series?
Fire and Brimestone
A vision of a, "black Sun Rising" from which demons poured out. The Dalek Hive temporarily collapsed a sentient engineered sun into an interdimensional black hole that became an Omniverse gateway alowing th Yssgaroth and Spider Daleks to enter N-Space.
The Glorious Dead
A black sun with a white halo and pupils.
Note: Author simply playing with the eye visual.
Miranda
Dalek controlling their descendents Faction Klade. (Also in the cancelled, "Enemy of the Daleks").
My thoughts
Mr Miles's intented meaning for the black sun seems clear, (more of a motif the Timelord's enemy's use knowingly or not and a reference to the pre anchoring, "irrational" universe/reality). It is possible that the Faction purposefully gave the Order of the Black Sun the blacksun motif as a both a Yssagaroth reference, (like their original skull masks) and an omen of the Gallifreyless Post War universe creating the motif's association with enemies in the Timelord's intelligentsia stoking the Timelord's usual general nervousness/concern. If the Yssgaroth really were hostile anti structures perceived as projections of the observer's internal horror then it makes sense that the Timelord's power of creation linked intelligentsia would make their entry portals black suns as a result. However the meaning behind the use of the alchemy black sun symbol for body solution is unknown, (erasure?). Unless the body dissolution/erasure thing is specifically related to the enemy I doubt it's more then a visual motif.
The non Faction authors are split between the Daleks, (especially Justin Richards) and just having fun with the visual imagery of an eye. The later can be safely ignored.
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Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 27, 2022 7:55:24 GMT
There's a simpler reason than alchemy for Black Suns to be a key visual of the Time Before Time and people interested in bringing it back — it's the classic literary example of an oxymoron, i.e. a phrase that is logically inconsistent by the light of rationality, beyond a paradox. I don't think anything can be “safely ignored”. Even if it could, why should it? Fun to be had by canon-welding the rest. There's more to the Glorious Dead one than you think, for example. It occurs as the dominant visual of a vision of a world dominated by the disembodied consciousness of the Master, for example, so there is a connection to be drawn to the suppositions in Gallifrey Chronicles; equally, this vision is of a world ruled by the Master via mastery of an interdimensional singularity, so it connects to the Black Sun Rising of its fellow DWM Eighth Doctor comic Fire & Brimstone, the portal allowing in interdimensional horrors like the Yssgaroth and created by corrupting a sort of Eye of Harmony 2.0 — and that connects very directly to Interference where Black Suns resulting from experiments to create the Caldera are shown as the Yssgaroth's and other horrible things', ways into the Spiral Politic. Also missing from this round-off: Interference's reference to a "Cult of the Black Sun" has been taken by many as a mere nod to Alan Moore's Order of the Black Sun, but if we take off our Who-focused goggles, it is also of interest that Grant Morrison used a Cult of the Black Sun in 2000A.D., who used corrupted black suns as multiversal portals… This is all straying from the topic of this thread, though. |
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Post by doctornolonger on Aug 27, 2022 13:18:19 GMT
I don't think anything can be “safely ignored”. Even if it could, why should it? Fun to be had by canon-welding the rest. Depends on your intention. If you’re looking for the key to a Doylist puzzlebox constructed by the authors – as The Book of the War invites us to do, which I hope we’ll explore in the upcoming readthrough – that requires a sort of Doylist perspective that says, well, Loz probably wasn’t involved in the writing of The Glorious Dead, so it can be safely discarded! Whereas if you’re instead approaching from a Watsonian, “I am an author, let me create connections to fuel material” perspective, what you’re saying makes a lot more sense Scrooge. Either way, I’ll note that the Black Sun doesn’t appear in the FP series, just its DWU cousins. It would have been easy to slot it into The Book of the War (or Warlords of Utopia, at that) but they chose not to. There’s an answer there – but it can probably be safely considered separate from the other puzzles. |
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Anastasia
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Post by Anastasia on Aug 27, 2022 13:53:15 GMT
Either way, I’ll note that the Black Sun doesn’t appear in the FP series, just its DWU cousins. It would have been easy to slot it into The Book of the War (or Warlords of Utopia, at that) but they chose not to. There’s an answer there – but it can probably be safely considered separate from the other puzzles. I would argue that dose not mean it I can be safely ignored, in the Book of the War and other places as previously mentioned their is something inside the Star? Which star may be important but I want to go on a little astrophysics tangent which may be related to this. their is something inside the Homeworld’s Sun, in the post War Universe their is a great Black Eye (their is also one in the pre anchoring universe) now the Homeworld’s culture is very old and so it can be safe to assume that so is their Sun. now their is a type of theoretical star which could have existed billions of years ago back when stars where just starting out called a Quasi-star. now a Quasi-star is a kind of star which is far bigger than any star which exists now in fact it is so ginormous that it has a black Hole (in early theories sometimes called a Black Star) at its centre and due to its sheer amount of energy it dose not fall into the black hole as the star is constantly trying to blow its self up. Instead the Black Hole keeps it relatively stable until it (depending of the theory) explodes or implodes (or maybe both) leaving nothing but a very large Black Hole behind. And according to some sources the Yssgaroth emerged from black Holes so what I am saying is perhaps at the end of the war when (or if) the Homeworld was destroyed the star imploded (or exploded) leaving nothing but a great Big Black Sun (or Hole) and we all know that the Homeworld dose funny things to stars. if you would like a wiki link to Quasi-star here it is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-starand here for a little bit of information is a link to a Black Star Wikipedia page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_star_(semiclassical_gravity)final I would like to add that from a real world Physics point of view I do not subscribe to Black Stars but I am rather found of Quasi-stars (I don’t necessarily believe they exist nor do I believe they don’t exist I am still waiting for more proof, I do lean a little towards believing them.) |
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Post by bumbles on Sept 1, 2022 10:10:41 GMT
The enemy uses the black sun motif because it's a known symbolism of two of the Timelord's enemy, (and another reason if my theory is right). Maybe the weapons in the Riveria manuscript are described black suns because the Doctor as a Timelord associates them with an enemy force and the interrogator and or One took advantage of it? Lawrence Miles in his book Implied that the Great Black Eye Which watches over the Post-War History was in fact (forgive the use of a DW a term) the Remains of the Eye of Harmony (or maybe the Enemy’s Eye) which is worshiped by the Mal’akh from the Kingdom of the Beasts (which possibly has something to do with Cernnonus). However their may be several Great Black Eyes which watch over history in the Post-War Universe, namely the Master from with in the Eye of Harmony, as you mentioned the Daleks (who are not the Enemy in the War) the destroyed Eye of Harmony. However the Black Sun motif within the War seems to link to the Order of the Black Sun as you said however the mentions of hem where put into an equivalent of Allan Moor who the Sceneshifers (who may only possibly be the Enemy) shifted his time line so he was not called Allan Moor and still wrote that story for Mister E (a stand in for Doctor Who magazine) meaning we must now enter the Metafictional arena of the War and can not look at it simply as an entirely in universe conflict as our perception of events from our real universe can alter events within universe (namely authors and how everyone takes a different meaning from the texts) thus the identity of the Enemy is not a simple as a purely in universe force we the reader may be the Enemy (I am not saying we are I am just saying that it is one possibility) and the Black Sun Reference may Imply that Allan Moor is as Much The Enemy as the Sceanshifers seeing as they inspired the creation of the War by creating the first written Temporal War. The later Who books imply that the Blavk Eye belongs to …. Something thst is an anagram of “Klade”. which is a rubbish reduction of an interesting concept to “it’s them, it’s obviously them because … they’re special”. |
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glyng
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Post by glyng on May 22, 2024 12:07:11 GMT
There was that comic strip from 1997 featuring posthumanity’s Eye of the Harmony copy that got taken over by Daleks and turned into the Black Sun (https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Crivello%27s_Cauldron ). So there was precedence by them together. If that even takes place in the same continuity / universe.
Though I’m not keen on the idea of the pepperpots being the actual enemy (seems lame and underwhelming) and I tend to view NewWho’s Great Time War as just being a minor offshoot or oxbow.
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Cousin Themistocles
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Post by Cousin Themistocles on May 27, 2024 16:47:05 GMT
Has anyone, perhaps, considered the similarities between the Celestis and the Gods of Dellah?
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Anastasia
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Post by Anastasia on May 28, 2024 11:24:46 GMT
Has anyone, perhaps, considered the similarities between the Celestis and the Gods of Dellah? Well one of the Celestis does use the name of one of the Gods but the gods seem to predate the People and thus must be older than the Celestis (well in any sense that one can be older than something which never existed.). But either way they is at least some vague link between them. |
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Cousin Themistocles
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Post by Cousin Themistocles on May 28, 2024 15:01:08 GMT
Has anyone, perhaps, considered the similarities between the Celestis and the Gods of Dellah? Well one of the Celestis does use the name of one of the Gods but the gods seem to predate the People and thus must be older than the Celestis (well in any sense that one can be older than something which never existed.). But either way they is at least some vague link between them. The Shift in the Book of the War claims it was thrown back in time from the destruction of Mictlan to the early history of the Spiral Politic. If the Celestis were capable of reconstituting themselves at that point from the ideas which the Shift and servants had of them, that could explain the timeline difficulties with this theory and even the differences in modi operandi between the Mictlan Celestis and the Gods, seeing as the latter would be akin to Remembered versions of the former. Not to mention the suspicious similarities (in both personality and appearance) between Investigator One and "John", who seems to know quite a few details about the true nature of the Gods. |
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quad
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Post by quad on May 28, 2024 17:00:24 GMT
Has anyone, perhaps, considered the similarities between the Celestis and the Gods of Dellah? I mean, in the context of FP with Book of the War and the revised edition of Dead Romance, the Gods are pretty definitively meant to be the enemy... |
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Post by Peterchu on May 29, 2024 14:51:38 GMT
Which certainly doesn't rule out the Celestis being the Enemy or at least another universe's Great Houses.
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