GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Dec 29, 2022 19:54:55 GMT
Thought it would be fun to discuss the userbase's thoughts and opinions on the Cult of the Black Sun's relevance to the Faction Paradox series as a whole. History
 In Doctor Who history the Order of the Black Sun first appeared in the March 1981 DWM comic story 4-D War. In this story several members of the Order - who are said to be from thirty thousand years in the future - travel back in time to Gallifrey in order to stop the Special Executive (a group of Gallifreyan parahuman mercenaries) from retrieving their agent Fenris from the Zone of No Return. Fenris himself had debuted in the November 1980 story Star Death where he caused the "death" of Omega. This story was notable as Lawrence Miles stated "Alan Moore's back-up strips were an obvious influence on both Marc Platt's view of ye olde Gallifrey and my view of its future (Alien Bodies shares 95% of its DNA with its closest relative, 4-D War.)" However, this was not the Black Sun's first mention from DWM. A year earlier the comic story Doctor Who and the Star Beast had the Black Sun being the cause of the Meep's entire culture turning from peaceful to war conquers who acted under the banner of the Black Sun. Furthermore the Meeps harvested Black Sun radiation to turn humans violent and make them susceptible to manipulation. The Order would go on to make several other appearances in DWM: 1981's Black Sun Rising saw the timey-wimey origins of the Order's rivalry with Gallifrey after a Sontaran mind-controlled a Special Executive member to kill a Black Sun elder, but by the time 1998's The Final Chapter came along a member of the Order was serving as High Evolutionary on Gallifrey. For copyright reasons when the Order began getting mentioned in other material that didn't possess the rights they began being referred to as the Cult of the Black Sun. Several important Faction Paradox stories mentioned the cult. Inference: Book One claimed that the Cult were among the many secret societies which Faction Paradox created among the "lesser species", telling them "all the nastiest secrets of the Time Lords". The Adventuress of Henrietta Street claimed there to be a mysterious black sun which functioned as a corrupt antithesis of the Time Lords' Eye of Harmony and was a prominent omen of the post-War universe that would follow from the fall of Gallifrey. And The Gallifrey Chronicles stated there had been a cause of concern and speculation among the Time Lords regarding the Black Sun well before the War in Heaven. My thoughtsI believe that as the "corrupt antithesis of the Eye of Harmony" the Black Sun has the power to stow special abilities upon certain individuals (just like the Eye of Harmony has ties to the power of regeneration). However, others individuals (and whole species like the Meeps) are instead turned into violent warmongers (perhaps due to their subconscious minds snapping at being deemed unworthy of the Black Sun's powers?). The Order of the Black Sun were initially peaceful folk who worshiped the Black Sun and had a civil relationship with Gallifrey until the conflict brought about by Sontaran manipulation. Afterwards the Order entered into the first Time War against the Time Lords, Black Sun agent Fenris traveled back in time and caused Omega's "death". From within the anti-matter universe Omega became sometime of a God and used the abilities of the Black Sun to gain access back into the main universe. He evolved "lesser beings" to do his bidding (who then became the Order) and told them all the "all the nastiest secrets of the Time Lords", he turned the Sontarans into a race of warmongers to ensure one of their members would kickstart the Order's conflict with Gallifrey and in turn cause Fenris to bring about his "death".   Now as the ultimate paradox, Omega would gain the support of the Faction who would overtake the Order and become the Cult of the Black Sun. What is everyone else's take? |
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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 29, 2022 22:35:52 GMT
I won't comment on the Omega business — but it seems to me that a missing piece of the puzzle, here, is that the first work to use “the Cult of the Black Sun” as a substitute for Moore's “Order” was actually Grant Morrison's Zenith comics as serialised in 2000 A.D.. This, more than anything, is what is referenced in The Enemy of My Enemy…There, the Cult worshipped the “Lloigor” or “Many-Angled Ones”, eldritch entities from outside the universe; in conventional Cthulhu Mythos parlance, “Lloigor” is the name of a specific deity, but Morrison appears to use it as a generic term for Great Old Ones in general, with our old friend Yog-Sothoth… sorry, “Iok Sotot”, being the main one we see being summoned through the Cult's rituals in these stories. Interestingly, the sect was actually first identified as “the Order of the Black Sun” in the second of Morrison's Zenith stories, Blow Up. By the way, this being the sort of comic that this is, Adolf Hitler is noted to have been a member of the Cult/Order.  In the thirteenth story, Into the Absolute Elsewhere, we learn that these Lloigor have plans of multiversal reach, involving the starting of “the War that Never Ends”.  After the completion of the initial arc fighting Iok Sotot, the Lloigor returned as the main antagonists of a much longer arc starting with Message in a Bottle, by which point bucketloads of parallel universes had indeed been introduced to the series. Their plan turns out to be to physically displace millions of the universe in the Void to form a sort of über-celestial alignment, the Omnihedron the sweaty blond man above was gibbering about.  In Shaming the Devil, it is explained that this is all part of a plot on the part of the Lloigor to reach “Point Zenith”/“the Godhead”, apparently the core of the entire Omniverse, from which they'll unfold their many-angled forms into all that is and ever was, gaining omnipotent control over all realities. As you do. Annoyingly, this allows Morrison to turn the Lloigor into figures of absolute Order, who want to abolish uncertainty at the quantum level, turning all of reality into “a piece of clockwork” (as the characters muse in Stairway to Heaven). Not very Enemyish, that. There is also no Black Sun content whatsoever within that whole story arc (“Phase III”), although the goodies use an “Einstein-Rosen Bridge” to travel between realms which manifests not wholly unlike a black sun. The fourth and final “Phase” of Zenith has yet more shake-ups. The Lloigor are back again, and the prologue outright begins with a grand vista of a Black Sun overlooking a city in thrall to them. (We also get a glimpse of an altogether novel manifestation of the Lloigor as spider-like creatures, but I don't think that means anything in particular).  It certainly quacks and floats like a Black Sun from the start, but is it a Black Sun? Oh yes.  This particular Black Sun turns out to be a corrupted version of Earth's Sun.  Corrupted into what, you ask? Into “a door… an egg… the physical extrusion of a realm beyond our own”.  In a somewhat odd turn, they turn out to be ascended, future versions of various (super)human characters, with Iok Sotot himself being none other than Zenith's own son. In any case, they are ultimately disposed of by means of tricking them into a sealed pocket universe inside a glass pyramid; and that is that. |
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Dec 29, 2022 23:40:21 GMT
Oh! Wow! Wow! Wow!
Thanks for the engagement Aristide, I had no idea that the Order had been explored beyond the DWM.
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Dec 29, 2022 23:52:43 GMT
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PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
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Post by PI9090 on Dec 30, 2022 3:31:27 GMT
Alan Moore created them for his Doctor Who comics which have been subsequently retconned by both Mr Miles, (Faction created group) and Whoverse in general, (The First Great Time War). Other people used them in other works which have no relation or relevancy to Doctor Who or Faction Paradox, any attempt to link them is nonsensical. They can be used a visual references for fanart but nothing else.
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Dec 30, 2022 6:16:16 GMT
Other people used them in other works which have no relation or relevancy to Doctor Who or Faction Paradox, any attempt to link them is nonsensical. They can be used a visual references for fanart but nothing else. You seem like fun. |
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Dec 30, 2022 6:48:20 GMT
I am not trying to say that Moore had some foreknowledge of Faction Paradox's creation almost two decades prior to Miles creating it (although with the Faction who knows!), but at the end of the day these stories still exist in the Faction Paradox lore. You may dismiss them as being retcons but that doesn't matter to me. As a FP fan I like to piece all of these things together and try to find a way of accommodating them all. It isn't "nonsensical" (we're talking about voodoo time-travelling cults here) it is simply a bit of fun.
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Dec 30, 2022 9:16:14 GMT
Alan Moore created them for his Doctor Who comics which have been subsequently retconned by both Mr Miles, (Faction created group) and Whoverse in general, (The First Great Time War). Other people used them in other works which have no relation or relevancy to Doctor Who or Faction Paradox, any attempt to link them is nonsensical. They can be used a visual references for fanart but nothing else. To disregard something like these comics would be like me coming in and saying the events of Captain Scarlett have no bearing on the Events of Dalek History. now I may be going a bit of topic here but in the 60’s the worlds of Gerry Anderson and the Daleks where very much the same world and the explanation given in those comics is that the Daleks invaded earth in the 2060’s but SPECTRUM covered it up to protect this information from the Mysterons leading to the Dalek Invasion of Earth in the 22nd century. and so two series developed independently influenced each other heavily, whilst the links between these are weaker their is still enough of a link. Or at least an inspiration if not the true identity but one which can be used to silt through the construction of the Enemy by Miles and see their true and final form. not to mention the Warprites of Phidon in the Gallifrey audios appeared in a similar comic by Alan Moor. |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Dec 30, 2022 9:28:51 GMT
I myself believe that their is a link between the Black sun imagery and the thing inside the Homeworlds sun. Their is a Hypothetical star called a Quasi Star or black hole star (sometimes also called a Zombie Star) that only existed very early in creation. They where so big that at their core a black hole formed yet never collapsed the star due to the the amount of energy the star produces pulling it apart and so it maintains and equilibrium the black hole stops it exploding and the energy stops it imploding. Now these stars would not have lasted long. But let’s step back in to the world of science fiction we know the Great House can manipulate stars even being called the Sunbuilders by some peoples I propose the the Homeworld froze their star in time and that it was one of these stars which it formed around. Their is also something called black star which is a now disproved theoretical alternative to a black hole. I propose that due to the time freezing something like the Memevore evolved in the sun or the Enemy put something in there. Now when the war ended or at the final battle (or last contact) the sun broke from its time freeze and imploded leaving the black hole at it core intact and from this they emerged who ever they may be. this was also briefly discussed on a previous thread, nearing the end. factionparadox.boards.net/thread/17/survival-celestis |
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Post by garyshots on Dec 30, 2022 13:31:49 GMT
Alan Moore created them for his Doctor Who comics which have been subsequently retconned by both Mr Miles, (Faction created group) and Whoverse in general, (The First Great Time War). Other people used them in other works which have no relation or relevancy to Doctor Who or Faction Paradox, any attempt to link them is nonsensical. They can be used a visual references for fanart but nothing else. I dunno how useful the idea that retcons by real-world writers invalidate earlier stories in a shared universe really is once we're talking about fictional histories being revised back and forth. The Book of the War retcons the identity of the Enemy from Interference: is that invalid now? Or has The Book of the Enemy retrospectively invalidated The Book of the War by changing it back again? It doesn't work. We can read ludically, but we can't play chess with Monopoly rules. If the Faction Paradox universe can expand to include Dune and Hellraiser but not Alan Moore's Doctor Who comics, something has gone wrong.
It's clear that Grant Morrison's comics and 2000AD more generally both influenced Grandfather Loz at a formative age. (In the interview I linked to he seems to be cosplaying as Grant Morrison!) I don't think I'd previously made the connection with Zenith (which is mind-blowingly brilliant, especially Phase III- please do read it if you haven't yet!), but it's not a stretch at all to speculate that it was another key influence incubating in the fertile darkness of his brain. |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Dec 30, 2022 21:29:29 GMT
One little thing I would like to add. I don’t see why Hitler would ally with the Enemy when a lot of other versions of him allied with the Great Houses. So perhaps the events of Zenith are the events leading to the anchoring of the thread and the lligor are the Great Houses? (I have not read the comics but judging from what you have said they seem much more Housesish to me than enemyish)perhaps the black sun imagery is just left overs from the prewar are?
Or perhaps their is a time loop of some kind with the Enemy becoming the Houses set the clockwork up, the Enemy appear somewhere over throw them set the clock work up and get overthrown once more.
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Post by Peterchu on Jan 1, 2023 12:12:53 GMT
The Council of Hitlers as far as I remember, weren't aware of the Great Houses, they just got assistance from Abschrift, in order to setup their council and travel the worlds. Abschrift's mission was to find the renegades that had fled there. Why wouldn't Hitler ally with the Enemy, they're rising up against the current order, trying to restore the universe to a previous "golden age".
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Jan 1, 2023 12:36:52 GMT
The Council of Hitlers as far as I remember, weren't aware of the Great Houses, they just got assistance from Abschrift, in order to setup their council and travel the worlds. Abschrift's mission was to find the renegades that had fled there. Why wouldn't Hitler ally with the Enemy, they're rising up against the current order, trying to restore the universe to a previous "golden age". but are they? To me the Time Lord seem a lot like the Conservative Party or UKIP. I myself see the Enemy as Them to the Great Houses Us. And Hitler’s driving forces was the eradicated perceive them to the NAZI’s Us and thus Hitler seems much more likely to ally with a conservative old school one race to dull them all kind of ideology that the Great Houses have. Not to mention the Great Houses most obvious presence is that of a race of Ayran Super Soldiers (the Cwej-Primes). To Hitler the Greta Houses must seem like the ultimate evolution of his ideology. not to mention the second wave purges and Genocides. The Enemy may be after the old school world of the Cacophony but other sources contradict this. |
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Post by Ettolrahc Dvora on Jan 2, 2023 15:33:40 GMT
One little thing I would like to add. I don’t see why Hitler would ally with the Enemy when a lot of other versions of him allied with the Great Houses. So perhaps the events of Zenith are the events leading to the anchoring of the thread and the lligor are the Great Houses? (I have not read the comics but judging from what you have said they seem much more Housesish to me than enemyish)perhaps the black sun imagery is just left overs from the prewar are? Or perhaps their is a time loop of some kind with the Enemy becoming the Houses set the clockwork up, the Enemy appear somewhere over throw them set the clock work up and get overthrown once more. I like the idea of the Great Houses beign the Llogir in the Pre-Anchoring Era  |
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Post by garyshots on Jan 2, 2023 20:56:03 GMT
Surely the "Lloigor" are just the Great Houses from the previous universe/the one outside the bottle?
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