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Post by doctornolonger on Nov 27, 2022 19:15:19 GMT
Though Faction Paradox is a reasonably new organisation, its roots seem to be buried deep in the prehistoric psyche of the Homeworld.In this thread, our Book Club will discuss The Book of the War's brief safari through the dark and dangerous Labyrinths: - Biodata (p. 17-18)
- Diaspora (p. 44)
- Eremites (p. 55-56)
- Faction Precursors (p. 62-63)
- Foyle (p. 69-70)
- House of the Rising Sun (p. 95)
- Labyrinths (p. 109)
- Remonstration Bureau (p. 164-165)
- Voodoo Charter (p. 211-212)
- Venue Accords (p. 208)
- Weaponstores (p. 211)
Did you bring back any insights on your return from the abyss? If so, let us know below, then escape back to The Thirteen-Day Republic or join us next week for The Ghost Dance!
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Nov 27, 2022 19:43:53 GMT
I myself have never seen Hellraiser. However the Fact that the Remonstration bureau of all things got several powers of the wartime to set aside their differences if only for a brief while is deeply fascinating. Also do you think the things inside the Labyrinth that which cause so much fear in both Enemy and House affiliated forces alike is some kind of evolved Eremite? Is that what happened to them? And how is Mister Smith from the audios linked to all this?
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PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
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Post by PI9090 on Dec 8, 2022 10:29:24 GMT
I thought the Eremites were the book Cenobites not the movie ones. BiodataBest simple description is, "Time .D.N.A.". An information strand that runs through all four physical dimensions as they move along their timeline. The, "true" shape of an individual's life. The reading procedures are difficult and require an extensive amount of technology but it enables the viewer to see every aspect of the individual's entire history. A sentient being's, "invisible and inconceivable but nonetheless very very real", "intangible greater self", (mass of collapsed possibilities and transtemporal information or, "meaning mass") that dictates their relationship with history, the mundane four physical dimensions part of their existance being a relatively unimportant cursor. In quantum terms only minds capable of true comprehension, (collapsing probability states and thus making sense out of the choatic subatomic universe) are biodata dependent. Biodata may evolve in a way, the major power's biodata influencing that of the lesser species. (The First Diaspora spreading Gallifreyan biodata throughout the galaxy had the same effect to that of humanity's spread out of Africa). The Timelord's linear nature means it's easier for them to read past biodata then future biodata making reliable predictions, (of events outside of Gallifrey) an inexact science. Biodata manipulation maybe a major part of the Timelord's timetravel technology. Artificial intelligences have smaller, (thinner?) biodata strands, the first being Charles Babbage's Analytical engine. Use Lawrence Miles as the visual reference for .R.B.Nevitz? It seems appropriate. Did the anchoring erase biodata aswell as the physical dimensional cursors of those that didn't conform? Voodoo CharterThe Knight Immortal might be a future tech recreation of Da Vinci's Knight robot? It would fit in with the decadence aesthetic. Venue Accords5.D.T.W. Lasted less then a picosecond. Attendees: Timelords, the enemy reps, and The Remote. They never met face to face. Architects are unknown but their human representative suggests the City of the Saved. The Venue was a small galaxy sized .T.T. capsule like spacetime event. The Master Accords formed part of it's transmutive architecture processing their agendas and secret desires and correlating it into a peace agreement. Fell apart after the Master Accords were revealed: The Timelords were aggrieved by the Venue's seemingly .T.T. capsule like nature and feared a security breach, the enemy didn't want peace, and the Remote didn't care leaving behind a ship killer anarchitect, (which remained dormant showing that the Venue wasn't as .T.T. capsule like as the Timelord's thought). There was a later fear that the Accords was an attempt by it;s architects to gain an advantage in the War for themselves. What did we learn about the enemy?89.Established lines of communication through the Labyrinth. 90.Reps trapped in the Labyrinth happily formed temporary truces with Timelord agents as their fear of it trumped their hatred. 91.It fought with virulent animosity during the early war. 92.Destroys Labyrinth entrances as soon as they are found. 93.Recruited the assassin automation, "The Knight Immortal" after he was expelled from the Remonstration Bureau, (thought destroyed during the Lethean Campaign to everyone's relief). 94.Agreed to the Voodoo Charter, (an acknowledgement that War with the Remonstration Bureau is unlikely). 95.Is content to ignore small time travel technology abuses. 96.Didn't want peace.
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Post by garyshots on Dec 9, 2022 2:26:37 GMT
Well, now I've got to watch Hellraiser!
I was more into Hellblazer. It's probably the wrong way round. Never mind. Having looked it up, it seems that the Cenobite Labyrinth dimension was introduced in the second film from 1988, the last one with which Clive Barker was involved. Its most prominent feature was the Cenobite god, a giant spinning diamond named Leviathan, which is suspended over an abyss, though not hanging by one leg... unless Azazel/Shemjaza is in the diamond?
Though the name is linked to the word "hermit", in Eremites, makes me think that we're meant to be thinking of the Doctor's mentor, like the "womb" bit in Caldera. I thought that hermit was K'anpo Rimpoche, though can't remember how he fits together with I.M. Foreman, if he does?
Diaspora talks about "prophets of doom," "those foresighted few who predicted the War centuries before it happened", who would give anything to see all the Homeworlds destroyed in a devastating Enemy victory. Who are these prophets?
Quite a playful series of entries. Most obviously in the case of Mrs Foyle, who definitely seems like she's supposed to be someone. Human, virgin, raised Catholic, ornamental dagger... I was thinking gothic novel, Black Narcissus... but then there's the voodoo, or in fact the "vodou"- because her voodoo is more authentic than the Faction's! Annabel, Rebecca, Miranda... no, not Larkin's Miranda! Shakespeare's Miranda would be more to the point. I dunno.
But even apart from Mrs Foyle, there's Madame Sosotris from, yes, Crome Yellow via The Waste Land, but who also exists as both a human and an early Gallifreyan in the Doctor Who universe. There's Irma Vep- or is it Irma Vep? There's Hugo Mabuse and Bradleigh, there's Mistress Orlando. The Remonstration Bureau is reminiscent of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, though the dates are too tight for there to be any specific influence.
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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 9, 2022 10:42:44 GMT
Though the name is linked to the word "hermit", in Eremites, makes me think that we're meant to be thinking of the Doctor's mentor, like the "womb" bit in Caldera. I thought that hermit was K'anpo Rimpoche, though can't remember how he fits together with I.M. Foreman, if he does? An eremite is a “religious recluse”; a cenobite is a “ a monk who lives in a religious community”. I think the term of “eremite” was chosen as a similarly-antiquated near-synonym to the original “cenobite”, more than in allusion to any other established Who or FP ‘Hermits’… K'anpo Rimpoche is definitely meant to be the Doctor's mentor mentioned in The Time Monster, although so was Azmael in The Twin Dilemma. I.M. Foreman is somebody else entirely, with whom the Doctor does not appear to have been acquainted prior to Interference, despite also being a defrocked Gallifreyan monk; in fact, the Doctor briefly tells Foreman about K'anpo. In The Taking of Planet Five, there is yet another Gallifreyan calling himself a Hermit who becomes the last surviving Celestis (aside from “One”), as was brushed upon in another thread. Whether he is the same Hermit as K'anpo is a matter of some contention. But even apart from Mrs Foyle, there's Madame Sosotris from, yes, Crome Yellow via The Waste Land, but who also exists as both a human and an early Gallifreyan in the Doctor Who universe. I don't think the Time's Crucible mention is meant to imply that Sosotris was a Gallifreyan — just that she “already” existed on the Earth of the pre-Anchoring reality, an was in psychic contact with the Pythias. Are we meant to infer that the Sosotris of anchored reality is one of those cursed few who remember their existence in the prior state of reality, in much the same way a select few remember the War and the Homeworld in the Post-War Universe? Maybe so!
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Post by garyshots on Dec 9, 2022 12:39:45 GMT
I think you're right about Eremites/Cenobites, but I also wonder whether, Doylistically, one of the reasons for the Diaspora was to explain the abundance of religious exiles from the Homeworld. It also proceeds from the Reformation/Dissolution of the Monasteries parallels of the Intuitive Revelation, of course.
(There's the Meddling Monk too. I know there's not much evidence that "Mortimus" was religious on the Homeworld (I just checked), but he does like the robes. In fact, and I'm sure many people have thought of this before, the Monk is quite an interesting character if you look at him through a Spiral Politic lens. Doesn't give three wise monkeys about paradox. Meddles in history for fun, profit and, er, to accelerate the technological development of Earth. Hmm. (Having just looked up the Monk, I've just learned about Matt Berry's Monk, who's bound to resurface in an audio one day.))
I think you're right about Sosostris as well. It was getting late for me, and I was thinking of the West Spiral as a feature of the ancient Homeworld, rather than galactic geography! Does that mean that the 508th Pythia reigned during the Victorian era in Earth time? Or is it time-active telepathy?
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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 9, 2022 13:16:09 GMT
Does that mean that the 508th Pythia reigned during the Victorian era in Earth time? Or is it time-active telepathy?
"But, dear boy, this was before time…"
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Dec 9, 2022 16:31:57 GMT
Does that mean that the 508th Pythia reigned during the Victorian era in Earth time? Or is it time-active telepathy?
Whilst as the previous comment suggests time, or linear time at any rate, was still just a dream in the Great Architect of the Spiral Politics mind, but the Victoria link is still interesting. When one considers the “we are not amused” message from the Enemy.
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Post by garyshots on Dec 9, 2022 19:20:15 GMT
I think the pre-Anchoring Homeworld did have linear time to some extent, otherwise Marc Platt's flashbacks would have been Dadaist poems. But maybe the Homeworld's linear time didn't have to correspond with Earth's linear time because the Protocols of Linearity weren't in effect yet?
I'm still wondering about Mrs Foyle. Perhaps vodou is a fruitful avenue of investigation? I thought of I Walked with a Zombie but not sure it fits. Then White Zombie, which I haven't seen, but apparently the heroine does menace someone with a knife while possessed. There is a ceremonial knife in Angel Heart, but it's used on women rather than by them. I dunno. Vodou priestess, House of the Rising Sun: is she from New Orleans? Is she inspired by Marie Laveau?
What do we think her ethnicity is?
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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 9, 2022 20:41:27 GMT
I think the pre-Anchoring Homeworld did have linear time to some extent, otherwise Marc Platt's flashbacks would have been Dadaist poems. But maybe the Homeworld's linear time didn't have to correspond with Earth's linear time because the Protocols of Linearity weren't in effect yet? I tend to picture it as any individual observer having had their own (somewhat, but not strictly, linear) time-stream, which only intersected with any other observer's in accordance with their own preferences, biases, and current mood. It may be worth looking at Iris Wildthyme as an example of what such an existence looks like. As such, not only was Earth not in synch with the Homeworld, but Earth didn't have to be in synch with Earth. Mammoths could walk where they pleased; you could hold a family gathering inviting your entire line of ascendance and descendance. Should you leave your home community and travel the world for what we'd call a hundred years, you could quite naturally, quite casually come back to find that it had only been a day for them, if that is what your heart expected deep down; or on the contrary that it had been a millennium.
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Bongo50
Little Sibling
Currently reading The Book of the War
Posts: 44
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Post by Bongo50 on Jan 5, 2023 19:39:59 GMT
This set of entries ended up feeling quite disconnected to me. You've got the stuff about the Eremites and all that, then some stuff about Mrs Foyle, then a bit more stuck on the end. The Labyrinth feels a lot less prominent than I was expecting.
Biodata's a cool concept. The entry opens by talking about how it is common to all concious entities and ends talking about how AIs such as the Analytical Engine have biodata, meaning that AIs are concious which I find interesting.
The entry on Faction Precursors was quite dissapointing to me as it was almost all about the Eremites. While this is interesting, I was hoping for more of an overview of precursor groups.
What is so unexpected about Felicity Mamoulian's teeth intrigues me more than it probably should.
I'm suprised that no-one else has noticed that the Labyrinths entry is in the wrong place: it is located immediately before the "Ll" section heading rather than after it. Is this a genuine mistake or does it have deeper meaning? Could it be symbolic of how the Labyrinths were lost or how you can become lost inside them?
Another out of order thing is that this section is alphabetical apart from the Voodoo Charter and Venue Accords. Again, I'm not sure if this holds any significance.
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quad
Little Sibling
Posts: 47
Preferred Pronouns: he/him
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Post by quad on Jan 7, 2023 15:35:59 GMT
Definitely agree that this section seems disconnected, but unlike some other standalone stories in BotW (cough cough Thirteen Day Republic) it at least seems to have some passion behind it. Like someone thought up "What if the Cenobites were ancient Gallifreyan renegades?" and just ran with that for a fun little detour from the "main plot" of the Book. Also as Bongo said, congratulations to Loz for putting Labyrinths in K instead of L, that got a pretty good laugh out of me. Btw, anyone know who wrote this section? It sort of smells of SBJ to me.
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Bongo50
Little Sibling
Currently reading The Book of the War
Posts: 44
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Post by Bongo50 on Jan 7, 2023 16:52:53 GMT
Also as Bongo said, congratulations to Loz for putting Labyrinths in K instead of L, that got a pretty good laugh out of me. I feel like I'm missing a joke here. What is it about this entry being out of order that is funny?
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Jan 7, 2023 21:42:39 GMT
Also as Bongo said, congratulations to Loz for putting Labyrinths in K instead of L, that got a pretty good laugh out of me. I feel like I'm missing a joke here. What is it about this entry being out of order that is funny? I think there's a joke about Labyrinths being mazes that you can get lost in? So the Labyrinth section is mission (lost like in a maze) from section L and found in section K?
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Bongo50
Little Sibling
Currently reading The Book of the War
Posts: 44
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Post by Bongo50 on Jan 7, 2023 21:55:48 GMT
I feel like I'm missing a joke here. What is it about this entry being out of order that is funny? I think there's a joke about Labyrinths being mazes that you can get lost in? So the Labyrinth section is mission (lost like in a maze) from section L and found in section K? Ah ok. That was the way I interpreted this but I didn't consider it a joke. Thanks for the explanation.
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