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Post by brunojclwho on Sept 8, 2022 7:06:38 GMT
I was also quite stricken by that line about timeships as biodata re-writing machines. If we were going solely off DW, it would be hard to conceptualize TARDISes and Looms as the same sort of technology, as dual manifestations of any single underlying principle. But the concept of biodata ties them together: in the same way that the "slightly prescient" breeding-engines start the weaving of a newborn's life-story, the timeships weave one's life-story to include specific locations and times. A member of the Great Houses tells their timeship, "Rewrite my biodata so that the next place I visit is X," and the ship rewrites their biodata, and thus they arrive at destination X; the "how" of it – how does the ship physically move across the distance? what's the in-between step? – doesn't come into it. "Distance" is a human concern. Timeships can't understand the concept. Thus the timeships are biological, not in the sense that they're grown from coral, but in the sense that they work by manipulating biology on the most fundamental level. What a subtle yet radical departure from the traditional scifi understanding of time travel! Likewise, Bruno, I like the "mythical" way the Time Lords are treated here, and not just mere fake politicians. Great call-out, and I like this too. Especially since we've always known about the Time Lord Academy, it doesn't seem major to pivot to call them "academicians" rather than "bureaucrats", but this small change successfully reframes their stuffiness as purely intellectual rather than governmental. And even where the political framing remains – like in the name "Spiral Politic" – we're confronted with the etymological root, meaning "sensible, wise, polite". It's the concepts we've always known, thrown through a funhouse mirror. This idea that they change Biodata is very interesting (hope we have more on that) We have already established that Time Lords are Extensions of the physical laws themselves, from the moment of Anchoring |
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ray
Little Sibling
We are not amused.
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Post by ray on Sept 8, 2022 7:17:36 GMT
I've been noticing a lot more of the Doctor Who connections this readthrough. For example, the Great Houses entry is somewhat dismissive of Invasion of Time's titular invasion; which makes sense because in this universe the Homeworld isn't exactly a planet to land on, at least not the real Homeworld. The Frontios frontier in time is very much a concern here as well. More detailed notes coming.
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Post by bumbles on Sept 8, 2022 7:44:20 GMT
The Doctor knows how to ascend into a brunt of pure energy, but he acknowledges that he lacks to attention span to do so in one of the (IIRC Orman) novels.
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Post by bumbles on Sept 8, 2022 9:24:14 GMT
I like the suggestion, or allusion or innuendo perhaps, that there’s a schism brewing between the old blood and new blood Houses on the Houseworld, this taps into the idea that in effect the War in Heaven is … the “present houses” versus “the future houses” versus “the past houses” versus “the now houses”. Basically eventually the houses become so different to their old mindset that their new mindset terrifies the old mindset into taking military action - two alien mindsets at war with each other, over what history should look like.
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Post by bumbles on Sept 8, 2022 9:25:54 GMT
I've been noticing a lot more of the Doctor Who connections this readthrough. For example, the Great Houses entry is somewhat dismissive of Invasion of Time's titular invasion; which makes sense because in this universe the Homeworld isn't exactly a planet to land on, at least not the real Homeworld. The Frontios frontier in time is very much a concern here as well. More detailed notes coming. The idea that somehow the creators and overseers and *insert noun here* of history have a point which they cannot perceive past does suggest an ending of their overseership. |
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Post by brunojclwho on Sept 8, 2022 20:17:11 GMT
The Doctor knows how to ascend into a brunt of pure energy, but he acknowledges that he lacks to attention span to do so in one of the (IIRC Orman) novels. [br Wait, which novel? |
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Post by bumbles on Sept 8, 2022 20:35:54 GMT
The Doctor knows how to ascend into a brunt of pure energy, but he acknowledges that he lacks to attention span to do so in one of the (IIRC Orman) novels. [br Wait, which novel? It’s in one of rhe “Doctor spends time in a cell, pondering his naval” scenes, so either Seeing I, Interference, Taking of Planet 5 or maybe Gallifrey Chronicles. Sorry, I’ve read so many it becomes a mush of one messy story. |
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Post by brunojclwho on Sept 8, 2022 21:09:29 GMT
It’s in one of rhe “Doctor spends time in a cell, pondering his naval” scenes, so either Seeing I, Interference, Taking of Planet 5 or maybe Gallifrey Chronicles. Sorry, I’ve read so many it becomes a mush of one messy story. So is: Seeing I (In "references" in the TARDIS Fandom, It is said that the 8th Doctor became claustrophobic after being in prison for a few years) |
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Post by doctornolonger on Sept 8, 2022 22:04:08 GMT
The idea that somehow the creators and overseers and *insert noun here* of history have a point which they cannot perceive past does suggest an ending of their overseership. It's tricky to conceptualize the frontier. Its very name – "frontier in time" – suggests it's something like a year which the Great Houses cannot see beyond, hiding the far-future posthuman era from view or influence. And yet, if I recall correctly, later in The Book we'll hear that the Houses had influence on the last posthuman civilization, close to the end of the universe! So the frontier isn't in time, per se; it's in the map of the Spiral Politic, which is … much harder to conceptualize, in the terms we're used to. And despite the similar names, the Spiral Politic, the map of the Houses' influence with the Homeworld at the centre, is not to be confused with Mutter's Spiral, the physical galaxy with (according to Interference) the Homeworld at its centre… The enemy. It's interesting how, in the years since, that latter word has gained a capital. Food for thought - perhaps literally, depending on how you interpret the enemy. (2) This is something I tried pushing back on in my earlier days in the fandom: a majority of links to the page for "The Enemy" still go through the [[The enemy]] redirect, I believe. But I suppose it's a little less ambiguous when you use the capital, especially when you're not talking in an exclusively FP-related context. |
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GodfatherPixel
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Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Sept 8, 2022 23:00:16 GMT
Currently on the Celestis Entry so far. I have to agree with one of the commentators that the description of the Spiral Politic as a map of history with planets that move and collide with one another is really great as a visual. Tempted to try and animate it almost like the animated segments in Monument Mythos. I was just thinking this myself, a great visual indeed. |
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Post by bumbles on Sept 9, 2022 1:30:08 GMT
The idea that somehow the creators and overseers and *insert noun here* of history have a point which they cannot perceive past does suggest an ending of their overseership. It's tricky to conceptualize the frontier. Its very name – "frontier in time" – suggests it's something like a year which the Great Houses cannot see beyond, hiding the far-future posthuman era from view or influence. And yet, if I recall correctly, later in The Book we'll hear that the Houses had influence on the last posthuman civilization, close to the end of the universe! So the frontier isn't in time, per se; it's in the map of the Spiral Politic, which is … much harder to conceptualize, in the terms we're used to. The enemy. It's interesting how, in the years since, that latter word has gained a capital. Food for thought - perhaps literally, depending on how you interpret the enemy. (2) This is something I tried pushing back on in my earlier days in the fandom: a majority of links to the page for "The Enemy" still go through the [[The enemy]] redirect, I believe. But I suppose it's a little less ambiguous when you use the capital, especially when you're not talking in an exclusively FP-related context. There was an old thread on Outpost Gallifrey where we wrote our own BotW entries, and in between Dilbert references, Transformers references and obscure literary references there was (totally by accident, I might add …) a link to an entry called “fanwank” … it linked to the URL to create an entry to “create your own entry to the BotW” thread. It was totally an accident but it SOOO worked. |
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Post by doctornolonger on Sept 9, 2022 2:17:53 GMT
There was an old thread on Outpost Gallifrey where we wrote our own BotW entries, and in between Dilbert references, Transformers references and obscure literary references there was (totally by accident, I might add …) a link to an entry called “fanwank” … it linked to the URL to create an entry to “create your own entry to the BotW” thread. It was totally an accident but it SOOO worked. Genius. I often regret not being around for the Outpost Gallifrey days, or at least not having access to the archives which must surely exist somewhere. Maybe a good idea to revive for this board, one of these days! |
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Mop
Little Sibling
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Post by Mop on Sept 9, 2022 12:11:19 GMT
Well, I seem to be a bit behind on Discussion here, but I'll just chime in with my probably very outdated thoughts:
- I think the two ideas that stood out to me the most were the Celestis and the Yssgaroth - the former because I think it's an interesting concept, and the latter because I thought the paragraphs describing it were a really effective example of Cosmic Horror. I'd also give a shoutout to the Remote because that concept seems rather prescient.
- I never read the EDAs, so I couldn't really say how different any of these concepts are to Doctor Who if they popped up in those books. I think one interesting difference is the Homeworlders giving up on non-interference, which I think is a very helpful difference because it helps distinguish them from how their counterparts would act in Doctor Who.
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Post by miss//bearbrass on Sept 9, 2022 14:27:03 GMT
Are these Great Houses really the Time Lords of the TV show? If the enemy had already won … how would we know? Would we? Wow, this is such a cool idea. Is there any evidence elsewhere to support this? Hm, three things come to mind which could be explained by this: - The Time Lords appear to be using a significantly different writing system by the Ninth Doctor's time.
- In series 3 and The End of Time, the Seal of Rassilon isn't present on Time Lord collars or costumes (not even on Rassilon's), though circular Gallifreyan symbols/writing do feature on the costumes. By the time of The Day of the Doctor, the Seal has (retroactively) reappeared.
- There's a rather surprising number of children suddenly on Gallifrey in The Day of the Doctor.
Sure there are writing and production reasons for this, but perhaps we as the audience are watching the history and culture of the new homeworld (enemy homeworld or otherwise) change and settle into its new role. (And thanks to this discussion, I'm coming to believe circular Gallifreyan isn't the writing system of the Great Houses.)
This does then bring up the thought (and maybe an off-topic one!) of whether the Last Great Time War even involved the Great Houses at all.
Me, I have a guess, though I don't know whether either man ever intended it. Much is made in Lungbarrow of the forty-five Cousins quota that Lungbarrow must adhere to. What if, just maybe, Dr Who only exists because the Grandfather erased himself from history — because his erasure left a vacant 45th spot into which the Other's biodata-ghost was able to slip unnoticed? Beyond enjoying this idea, I also wanted to express my appreciation for calling the character Dr Who. It's valid and correct and by jiminy I will die on that hill. |
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Post by darkspine10 on Sept 9, 2022 14:30:13 GMT
Scattered thoughts about the Celestis: Of all the major factions, this one is in interesting in some ways, first of all for being the only faction to be 'killed off' in a final manner (ignoring the fate of the Great Houses after the whole Ancestor Cell kerfuffle and the whole 'post-war' universe stuff). True, that's simply because of the way things played out in The Taking of Planet 5, but I think it's quite appropriate.
The Celestis represent death and stagnation. Rather than embrace the new history offered by the enemy, or risk altering themselves to fight like the Great Houses, the Celestis choose to abstain. They end up killing themselves, you might say, freezing themselves as an unchanging force, sitting outside the conflict. They fetishize death in a far bleaker way than the Faction's skull motif ever could, ruling over an underworld of shambling, hollowed out slaves. They're even the ones who stake a claim on the Doctor's own corpse. Ironic that in the end they get the ultimate fate they deserve: death.
Compared to Faction Paradox who often tend to champion the 'little guy', encouraging narratives they think are 'more interesting' than the alternative, the Celestis feel more like a rich nation funding corrupt foreign powers. It's not for nothing that they're an extension of the CIA, who were implied to be behind the Doctor's mission to wipe out the Daleks. Even before being named they were oddly focused on death (note the Seventh Seal referencing Time Lord agent too).
Having recently read This Town Will Never Let Us Go, it's apt that the Celestis, as represented by their agent, the Black Man (previously associated with them in Alien Bodies), are trying to bring about the destruction of the time ship. It's the smothering of alternative possibilities, making the culture slip into a period of gentle mourning in which they can effectively ignore the real problems in society (simply look at current events today to see that exact process in action in the UK).
While other groups carry on, diminished like the Remote or enduring indefinitely like the wartime powers, the Celestis simply cease, before the series even really begins. They embrace the final end and leave the narrative entirely, as they always wanted.
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