|
|
Post by desertkris on Sept 7, 2022 3:18:43 GMT
In discussing the timeships, briefly, it skips the basic of "yes, they travel in time", I almost want to read it as, "well, that's how you humans would perceive it, as a machine for traveling through time, so of course you would view such machines as timeships." The entry talks more about how the timeship machines: --aren't vessels (vehicles?) --are described as more biological than we might expect (when thinking of a TARDIS) --they are more for re-writing the biodata of a child of the Great Houses, and --reprocessing their own futures. Great, thought-provoking post Kris; I especially appreciate your comment about Manuele and that shabbiness present already in Alien Bodies. I've always enjoyed your posts on GB so I'm glad you've joined us (and that you read my "Crimes Against History" article!)  I was also quite stricken by that line about timeships as biodata re-writing machines. If we were going solely off DW, it would be hard to conceptualize TARDISes and Looms as the same sort of technology, as dual manifestations of any single underlying principle. But the concept of biodata ties them together: in the same way that the "slightly prescient" breeding-engines start the weaving of a newborn's life-story, the timeships weave one's life-story to include specific locations and times. A member of the Great Houses tells their timeship, "Rewrite my biodata so that the next place I visit is X," and the ship rewrites their biodata, and thus they arrive at destination X; the "how" of it – how does the ship physically move across the distance? what's the in-between step? – doesn't come into it. "Distance" is a human concern. Timeships can't understand the concept. Thus the timeships are biological, not in the sense that they're grown from coral, but in the sense that they work by manipulating biology on the most fundamental level. What a subtle yet radical departure from the traditional scifi understanding of time travel! Thank you for commenting on my musings about the timeships, and elaborating on how they work in a way that I can get my head around a bit better!  I had a tenuous understanding of what I was looking at, the way you worded the mechanics of it is very helpful. And connecting that methodology as being similar technology to the breeding engines is another jump I wouldn't have made, it's really making me re-conceptualize the timeships and the breeding engines and their relationship to each other. [/quote] |
|
|
|
Post by bumbles on Sept 7, 2022 4:54:26 GMT
I rather like the idea that GP was just … this weird little bloke who thought he was edgy by wandering about in bones (oooh scary) and using “voodoo” (OHH dangerous!). Who suicided in some stupid bloody manner and everyone else brought into his “edginess” after he died and created an elaborate mythology in order to accomodate the reality that the Grandfather was the sort of person who looks up to Rick Sanchez and wears combat cosplay saying “don’t tread on me”. In fact, “Alien Bodies” explicitly equates “paradox” with the human conception of “Satan”, something so utterly terribly at odds with accepted society that it’s the epitome of evil…. So here we still go, some ponsy twit wanting to look “extreme”. |
|
Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
|
Post by Anastasia on Sept 7, 2022 6:18:00 GMT
Grandfather Paradox was from one of the older and slightly more erratic Great Houses bloodlines. Are we supposed to know which one? Or are we just meant to assume that he's a cousin of Dr. Who? Or is he a specific cousin? The Grandfather's first-ever mention was as “the voodoo priest of the House of Lungbarrow” in Christmas on a Rational Planet! And this is restated in Crimes Against History, which features Lungbarrow explicitly. Quite how the Grandfather fits into the Plattian family tree is an interesting question; he is of the War King's, and thus Theta Sigma's, generation, but I definitely don't think he's any one of the Cousins we know about from Lungbarrow itself. Me, I have a guess, though I don't know whether either man ever intended it. Much is made in Lungbarrow of the forty-five Cousins quota that Lungbarrow must adhere to. What if, just maybe, Dr Who only exists because the Grandfather erased himself from history — because his erasure left a vacant 45th spot into which the Other's biodata-ghost was able to slip unnoticed? I had never thought of it that way, do you mind if borrow this idea for a fanfic I have been working on for a while? also to anyone else I would recommend reading Crimes against History, I believe you can find it online? |
|
|
|
Post by garyshots on Sept 7, 2022 9:53:06 GMT
I rather like the idea that GP was just … this weird little bloke who thought he was edgy by wandering about in bones (oooh scary) and using “voodoo” (OHH dangerous!). Who suicided in some stupid bloody manner and everyone else brought into his “edginess” after he died and created an elaborate mythology in order to accomodate the reality that the Grandfather was the sort of person who looks up to Rick Sanchez and wears combat cosplay saying “don’t tread on me”. In fact, “Alien Bodies” explicitly equates “paradox” with the human conception of “Satan”, something so utterly terribly at odds with accepted society that it’s the epitome of evil…. So here we still go, some ponsy twit wanting to look “extreme”. Definitely. I don't want to offend any Satanists present, I'm sure there are some really creative and original Satanists. But there's also a sort of Spinal Tap end of it that seems like "It's Catholicism, but upside down, man. Upside down." And the Faction do have that slightly adolescent side to them. But also, time travel voodoo is cool. Shall we talk about cultural appropriation now, or never? |
|
|
|
Post by garyshots on Sept 7, 2022 9:55:23 GMT
Grandfather Paradox was from one of the older and slightly more erratic Great Houses bloodlines. Are we supposed to know which one? Or are we just meant to assume that he's a cousin of Dr. Who? Or is he a specific cousin? The Grandfather's first-ever mention was as “the voodoo priest of the House of Lungbarrow” in Christmas on a Rational Planet! And this is restated in Crimes Against History, which features Lungbarrow explicitly. Quite how the Grandfather fits into the Plattian family tree is an interesting question; he is of the War King's, and thus Theta Sigma's, generation, but I definitely don't think he's any one of the Cousins we know about from Lungbarrow itself. Me, I have a guess, though I don't know whether either man ever intended it. Much is made in Lungbarrow of the forty-five Cousins quota that Lungbarrow must adhere to. What if, just maybe, Dr Who only exists because the Grandfather erased himself from history — because his erasure left a vacant 45th spot into which the Other's biodata-ghost was able to slip unnoticed? Interesting, thanks! Christmas on a Rational Planet is still in my relative future. I must have read Crimes Against History at some point but didn't remember. I like the guess. So that would make the Renegade and the Grandfather... shadow brothers? Or only shadow Cousins? |
|
cousinunseen
Little Sibling
Posts: 18
Preferred Pronouns: she/they
|
Post by cousinunseen on Sept 7, 2022 12:10:35 GMT
Honestly that bit about how Timeships worked with the Great Houses really stood out to me,because up to now I just assumed they worked like the Tardises in Doctor Who seemed to work. So learning that the Time-Ships just alters your bio-data to make it so you appear in another location is something that threw me off. It's a very unique albeit confusing approach to Time-Travel mechanics.
|
|
|
|
Post by doctornolonger on Sept 7, 2022 15:09:54 GMT
The forms of the Yssgaroth are quite Biblical for a horror from another universe, no? Is that from The Pit? Or does it Mean Something? I think it owes to the Great Vampire in State of Decay, but the book does propose that these forms were the result of a sort of Rorschach test:Of course, The Book undercuts that explanation in the very next line, saying the Yssgaroth had "definite will to live" so "the matter’s still open to debate." Straightforward answers aren't BotW's strongest suit! And maybe its eagerness to show the reader multiple points of view at once is one of its strengths. I'd like to know a lot more about the Immaculata Formosii than there is in this book. I believe she pops up (to what extent, I won't say!) in Against Nature, and a bit in Newtons Sleep as well. |
|
|
|
Post by Epsilon (Toby Price) on Sept 7, 2022 16:05:50 GMT
Just read (edit: turns out I'm only partway through, oops) the entry for the Great Houses — it is decidely enlightening on how the Great Houses work. I always assumed they were basically the Time Lords but with a different name, but how the Great Houses actually operate is surprisingly similar to how I envisaged more omnipotent, powerful versions of the Time Lords. So I am very intrigued to learn more about actually interesting, decadent lords of Time. Speaking of Time, reading about the Spiral Politic was so wonderfully high concept, without feeling pretentious or anything of that ilk. I had assumed — of course — the Spiral Politic was more two-dimensional, but it is clever how inextricably linked it is to the Great Houses. So far, very enjoyable. Extra Retroactive Notes:I am rather fond of the framing that it's not Faction Paradox that is a part of the Doctor Who Universe, it is Doctor Who that is a part of the Faction Paradox Universe; When thinking about how everything fits together, it did feel natural to me that it was Doctor Who that was part of the Faction Paradox universe, not the other way around. It certainly does feel like Faction Paradox is a larger totality of Who. It reminded me of The End of Time, and how Rassilon and the Time Lords wanted to ascend as Gods. Doesn't the motive of the Time Lords in The End of Time happen to align with how it was said that the Houses could "ascend" out of their bodies. Though I can't seem to find the damned passage where it was stated, now causing a lot of frustration for me... Also, correct me if it's been stated before, but wouldn't this be one of those times where the television series has inadvertently adapted material from FP? |
|
cousinunseen
Little Sibling
Posts: 18
Preferred Pronouns: she/they
|
Post by cousinunseen on Sept 7, 2022 19:32:30 GMT
Weirdly enough there was a personal theory of mine connecting NuWho's Time Lords with the Great Houses that was a bit of extrapolation on the Timeless Children arc where the Master destroys the Timelords and uses the Cybermen to create a supposed new race of regenerating Cyber-Lords from those dead Time Lords.
Basically the idea was instead of being a previous or alternate version of the Time-Lords, the Great Houses descended from those Cyber-Lords, who gradually shed any trace of their organic bodies as they regenerated into higher forms, rebuilt the citadel from its ruins and replaced the Time-Lords as the rulers of history (Until the War in Heaven happened at least). I figured it fit in with how the Houses are describes as sterile entities who look down upon anything biological.
Now the theory does kinda get iffy wrt to the end of Timeless Children where the citadel is blown up with a device that destorys organic material basically killing the Master and the Cyber-Lords, unless of course the Cyber-lords mechanics survived and were able to regenerate without the biological competent. The other problem is that this theory kinda contradicts the stated history of the Houses in BOTW which is basically the history of the Time-Lords. But my way of getting around that second problem was the Cyber-Lords/Great Houses view themselves as the natural next stage of Gallifreyan evolution and as such they basically treat Gallifreyan history as their own history. Both to legitimize their right to the legacy of the Time-Lords and because it sounds more grandiose and impressive than their actual origins.
|
|
Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
|
Post by Anastasia on Sept 7, 2022 20:53:06 GMT
Weirdly enough there was a personal theory of mine connecting NuWho's Time Lords with the Great Houses that was a bit of extrapolation on the Timeless Children arc where the Master destroys the Timelords and uses the Cybermen to create a supposed new race of regenerating Cyber-Lords from those dead Time Lords. Basically the idea was instead of being a previous or alternate version of the Time-Lords, the Great Houses descended from those Cyber-Lords, who gradually shed any trace of their organic bodies as they regenerated into higher forms, rebuilt the citadel from its ruins and replaced the Time-Lords as the rulers of history (Until the War in Heaven happened at least). I figured it fit in with how the Houses are describes as sterile entities who look down upon anything biological. Now the theory does kinda get iffy wrt to the end of Timeless Children where the citadel is blown up with a device that destorys organic material basically killing the Master and the Cyber-Lords, unless of course the Cyber-lords mechanics survived and were able to regenerate without the biological competent. The other problem is that this theory kinda contradicts the stated history of the Houses in BOTW which is basically the history of the Time-Lords. But my way of getting around that second problem was the Cyber-Lords/Great Houses view themselves as the natural next stage of Gallifreyan evolution and as such they basically treat Gallifreyan history as their own history. Both to legitimize their right to the legacy of the Time-Lords and because it sounds more grandiose and impressive than their actual origins. Spoilers for the book of the war below
Godparent Pinocchio dose rather get in the way of this theory as they are for all intents and purpose a renegade Cyberman and whilst you could argue that the Cybermen at that point could be earlier the fact the Cybermen are implied to eventually evolve in to the Silversmiths' Coterie and create the Ashla shock-troops (who may somehow at one point be involved with the Enemy meaning you could possibly suggest the the Cyber lords have a link to the Enemy, this I unlikely as they did not yet exist with in the narrative at the time of the writing of Alien Bodies.) and other sources suggest they become the pacifistic Cyber Lords (a different kind of cyber Lord that is) and ditch their bodies and help humanity in the last years of the universe. So the ditching body thing could be possible but them become the Great Houses seems unlikely.
|
|
cousinunseen
Little Sibling
Posts: 18
Preferred Pronouns: she/they
|
Post by cousinunseen on Sept 7, 2022 21:33:22 GMT
Spoilers for the book of the war below
Godparent Pinocchio dose rather get in the way of this theory as they are for all intents and purpose a renegade Cyberman and whilst you could argue that the Cybermen at that point could be earlier the fact the Cybermen are implied to eventually evolve in to the Silversmiths' Coterie and create the Ashla shock-troops (who may somehow at one point be involved with the Enemy meaning you could possibly suggest the the Cyber lords have a link to the Enemy, this I unlikely as they did not yet exist with in the narrative at the time of the writing of Alien Bodies.) and other sources suggest they become the pacifistic Cyber Lords (a different kind of cyber Lord that is) and ditch their bodies and help humanity in the last years of the universe. So the ditching body thing could be possible but them become the Great Houses seems unlikely.Yeah I suppose that is a good point. Though I might have an explanation: From the final story of series 10 The Doctor Falls, the Doctor basically says that the Cybermen are something that multiple civilizations such as Mondas, Telos and Marinus ended up creating the Cybermen in isolation to one another, which is why they have so contradicting origins. Which implies that the Cybermen aren't a single species but rather a broad category for multiple instances of the same phenomenon.
Spoilers here:
I'm not entirely sure if that last Cybermen fleet that ends up on Gallifrey is meant to be the last remnant of them from the war they've had with humanity (Which since they're destroyed at the end of Timeless Children kinda affects their evolution into the Silversmith Cotories and the Cyber-Lords). But it could be possible that the Cyber-Masters (Turns out they're actually called that instead of Cyber-Lords as I thought) that evolved into the Great Houses were a separate species of Cybermen from the Cybermen that eventually became the Silversmith Coterie and the Pacifist Cyber-Lords later on. Maybe we could take this outside of the book club though? Put it in a separate section? |
|
|
|
Post by doctornolonger on Sept 8, 2022 2:52:41 GMT
From the final story of series 10 The Doctor Falls, the Doctor basically says that the Cybermen are something that multiple civilizations such as Mondas, Telos and Marinus ended up creating the Cybermen in isolation to one another, which is why they have so contradicting origins. Which implies that the Cybermen aren't a single species but rather a broad category for multiple instances of the same phenomenon. We’ll get to this in the City of the Saved week, but this is actually a perspective that FP beat the show to by a long shot! |
|
PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
|
Post by PI9090 on Sept 8, 2022 2:56:56 GMT
It reminded me of The End of Time, and how Rassilon and the Time Lords wanted to ascend as Gods. Doesn't the motive of the Time Lords in The End of Time happen to align with how it was said that the Houses could "ascend" out of their bodies. Though I can't seem to find the damned passage where it was stated, now causing a lot of frustration for me... Also, correct me if it's been stated before, but wouldn't this be one of those times where the television series has inadvertently adapted material from FP? The Time lords have the ability to ascend to a non corporeal statement and the Book says while they finds physical biology digustingly vulgar they don't have the creativity, (all progress was stopped first by the anchoring and then by the War's brutalisation of their culture) or drive to do so, (similar to how humanity did due to the ghost cluster devices except ). Maybe their hatred of physical biology is a subconscious acknowledgement, (shared and mainted via the intellegnstia) that they should be passed it? Those on Gallifrey 6 could have gained the will to do it but given how ithat cloneworld appears to be Rassilon's big reset I personally think it's unlikely. Also the similarity between the Celestis and the, "Ascendancy" plan can be explained as a connection in that it the .C.I.A. was controlled from the Matrix's .A.P.C. net by the Matrix Rassilon lead Matrix Lords, (see, "The Gallifrey Chronicles" textbook by Jon Peel). Maybe Rassilon later saw the Celstis as a proof of concept? So at some point within the first 50 War years the Timelords rediscovered organic childbirth as part of the biodiversity research and experimentation? Leela and Andred act as inspiration? Were the Shaobogans studied and or consulted? An interesting happenstance: Big Finish .M.R.70, " Unregenerate!". The Timelords secretly establish the Klyst Institute on Earth to conduct research into the possibility of inserting .T.T. capsule protocols into a humanoid body in an effort to control the lesser species's temporal development. (Remember that part for the Lolita and Compassion entries later). It recruits specimens by offering them a Faustian pact of improving their life in return for their cooperation later. So the Celestis may have just adapted one of their old .C.I.A. operating procedures to make the Mictlan servants. |
|
|
|
Post by brunojclwho on Sept 8, 2022 6:45:00 GMT
Hey, I'm going to drop in here to say you guys should also share your thoughts on Twitter! The new (official) Faction Paradox Twitter account ( @faction_paradox) is trying to get the word out, and some more engagement on the official hashtag would be great. Hell, you could even repost your comments from here --just want to see more people be dragged into the Spiral Politic. we are in this together hahahah |
|
|
|
Post by brunojclwho on Sept 8, 2022 6:47:10 GMT
Parece muito interessante (Sorry is speaking in Portuguese)
|
|
I had a tenuous understanding of what I was looking at, the way you worded the mechanics of it is very helpful. And connecting that methodology as being similar technology to the breeding engines is another jump I wouldn't have made, it's really making me re-conceptualize the timeships and the breeding engines and their relationship to each other.
