PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
|
Post by PI9090 on Aug 19, 2022 1:01:54 GMT
"Whatever the truth, with only one member it seems unlikely that House Lolita will be making a great impact on Homeworld politics in the immediate future", House Lolita, Book of the War. Both true and false. While she did manage to destroy the Faction Day Empire and rise to be War Queen both achievements were short lived. Cousin Justin managed to rebuild the Faction back to the same strength and seven hundred Osirian soldiers either killed or heavily injured imprisoned in Shada.
Given her alliance of with House Tracolix it's likely that the, "surprise" it promised in the Ninth Wave's, "suprise" was that it was intended to act as her enforcers on Gallifrey once she took control but they were never, "triggered" so they remained the same as the Eighth Wave.
So her only real lasting impact/legacy was her possible assistance in the 101 Form project?
|
|
|
|
Post by doctornolonger on Aug 19, 2022 3:04:44 GMT
It depends on whether you think Head of State takes place before or after True History. If before: Oh look, Lolita is impersonating another ruler to take over another era of Earth history, thank goodness Compassion and Justine cleaned this up offscreen.
If after: GAH THE VAMPIRE LADY IS BACK AND HAS A CALDERA |
|
|
|
Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 19, 2022 10:43:04 GMT
So her only real lasting impact/legacy was her possible assistance in the 101 Form project?
…What precisely do you mean by "possible assistance"? Being the test subject and sole result of the 101-Form Project is not what I would traditionally describe as “assistance”. If you misspoke and meant in the eventual 103-form project, I don't think that's right. The aim was the same, but I think it's rather the point that the 101-form project was a complete failure for the Houses (in terms of getting the kind of humanoid timeship they wanted), and their eventual success with the 103-forms was achieved via a completely different process and logic. |
|
Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
|
Post by Anastasia on Aug 19, 2022 12:13:41 GMT
My personal opinion or theory (could be wrong) is that Lolita Was not killed but instead lost a massive chunk of her Biodata (the bit that was on the Homeworld) and ended up with chunks of her all across history each unable to communicate, yet still in some way deep down Lolita, much in the same way that after the fall of the Eleven Day Empire several. faction cabals survived with out any knowledge of each other. And the both Lola Denison and Queen Charlotte survived as did several other chucks of her Biodata. (Kind of like how Cwej was also splinted of in the the Cwejen each of whom is on a Biodata level Chris Cwej yet who over time have evolved into individuals.)
So what I am saying in short is this The progenitor Lolita was Destroyed yet her Biodata Duplicates survived with each believing that they are the only surviving Lolita.
After this I believe Justine may have hunted down several versions of Lolita over the course of the War.
|
|
PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
|
Post by PI9090 on Aug 19, 2022 21:35:44 GMT
It depends on whether you think Head of State takes place before or after True History. After as her plan during that novel best fits in before then and I'd hope that getting jumped by 700 Mal'akh grotesques would result in her death, this is not NuWho or a soap opera so dead means dead, (or at least so quadrapledric that she might aswell be). What precisely do you mean by "possible assistance"? Being the test subject and sole result of the 101-Form Project is not what I would traditionally describe as “assistance”. If you misspoke and meant in the eventual 103-form project, I don't think that's right. The aim was the same, but I think it's rather the point that the 101-form project was a complete failure for the Houses (in terms of getting the kind of humanoid timeship they wanted), and their eventual success with the 103-forms was achieved via a completely different process and logic. I'd always assumed that the disasterous 101 mentioned in .T.B.o.T.W. was her first child the, "daughter" seen in Head of State. She assisted the Timelords purely so she could have their expert help and resources to help start her bloodline/house, (ie: Get modified so she could reproduce like compassion later could) but when it proved too monsterous she stole it away while the Timelords adjusted the truth again so people assume they destroyed it, (better to play it off as a failed proof of concept then admit it was an outright failure and it's, "Mother" stole and ran of with it then quietly, "fixed" it when they couldn't). My personal opinion or theory (could be wrong) is that Lolita Was not killed but instead lost a massive chunk of her Biodata (the bit that was on the Homeworld) and ended up with chunks of her all across history each unable to communicate, yet still in some way deep down Lolita, much in the same way that after the fall of the Eleven Day Empire several. faction cabals survived with out any knowledge of each other. And the both Lola Denison and Queen Charlotte survived as did several other chucks of her Biodata. (Kind of like how Cwej was also splinted of in the the Cwejen each of whom is on a Biodata level Chris Cwej yet who over time have evolved into individuals.) So what I am saying in short is this The progenitor Lolita was Destroyed yet her Biodata Duplicates survived with each believing that they are the only surviving Lolita. After this I believe Justine may have hunted down several versions of Lolita over the course of the War. The Cwejen were the result of the Timelord's unrepeatable Army of One project, if the Timelords couldn't duplicate it how could a single .T.T. capule without any resources or none of the required expert knowledge manage to do so? Also rereading the entry I get the sense that the Timelords managed to pull of something that no one should have been able to, seems a bit overpowered to me. If she was simply killed, (and thus her, "biodata thread" simply cut) then her past actions remain as part of history and there's plenty of scope for more stories about her machinations before her death which were later erased by whomever for whatever reason. Besides it reads like a rerun of the Clara... whatever it was. Personally I think that it's for the best that she's cleanly written out of the law as dead or securely imprisoned with few direct repercussions as Mr Miles no doubt had further plans for the character and I'd rather not risk having to retcon a ton of things away later if and when any of those plans come to light, (by him telling us or posthumous notes publication). Not to mention tie Justine down to just hunting her bioduplicates. |
|
|
|
Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 19, 2022 21:49:36 GMT
I'd always assumed that the disasterous 101 mentioned in .T.B.o.T.W. was her first child the, "daughter" seen in Head of State. She assisted the Timelords purely so she could have their expert help and resources to help start her bloodline/house, (ie: Get modified so she could reproduce like compassion later could) but when it proved too monsterous she stole it away while the Timelords adjusted the truth again so people assume they destroyed it, (better to play it off as a failed proof of concept then admit it was an outright failure and it's, "Mother" stole and ran of with it then quietly, "fixed" it when they couldn't). No no no, Lolita is the 101-form. She was experimented on to become the humanoid, organic-birth-giving version we know. She proved too clever and powerful for the Houses to control and escaped containment, which is of course what they mean by “monstrous” and “failure”. It's why she's called Lolita, you know. 101, Iteration A. 101itA. |
|
PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
|
Post by PI9090 on Aug 19, 2022 22:00:21 GMT
I'm sure I read somewhere she had become humanoid form capable as the unintended cumulative result of the Master experimenting on her over the years, (with her secret approval and guidance).
|
|
Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
|
Post by Anastasia on Aug 20, 2022 8:16:30 GMT
My personal opinion or theory (could be wrong) is that Lolita Was not killed but instead lost a massive chunk of her Biodata (the bit that was on the Homeworld) and ended up with chunks of her all across history each unable to communicate, yet still in some way deep down Lolita, much in the same way that after the fall of the Eleven Day Empire several. faction cabals survived with out any knowledge of each other. And the both Lola Denison and Queen Charlotte survived as did several other chucks of her Biodata. (Kind of like how Cwej was also splinted of in the the Cwejen each of whom is on a Biodata level Chris Cwej yet who over time have evolved into individuals.) So what I am saying in short is this The progenitor Lolita was Destroyed yet her Biodata Duplicates survived with each believing that they are the only surviving Lolita. After this I believe Justine may have hunted down several versions of Lolita over the course of the War. The Cwejen were the result of the Timelord's unrepeatable Army of One project, if the Timelords couldn't duplicate it how could a single .T.T. capule without any resources or none of the required expert knowledge manage to do so? Also rereading the entry I get the sense that the Timelords managed to pull of something that no one should have been able to, seems a bit overpowered to me. If she was simply killed, (and thus her, "biodata thread" simply cut) then her past actions remain as part of history and there's plenty of scope for more stories about her machinations before her death which were later erased by whomever for whatever reason. Besides it reads like a rerun of the Clara... whatever it was. first of all you have to remember that Lolita is not simply a single humanoid Timeship. She is also part Yssgaroth, a Great Vampier, and in several places the Yssgaroth are implied not to be many but to be a single entity in many parts. And also the Timeships are arguably far more powerful than the Great House and could in fact be the Enemy according to several sources (well they are just as likely as say the sixth wave or an arachnid.). not to mention that a Timeship unchained would be incredibly powerful and are not a simple piece of machinery or a simply piece of biology that are pure and living Mathematics (until Compassion and her children). Also I was not saying it used the same procedure I was saying that it was like the army of one, I myself would more described her a a deliberate Scaroth (from City of Death) yet able to travel between the selves. Next if Michael Brookhaven can make an Army of One it could prove not that making an army of one is not hard but the Great Houses ineptitude. (Or fear or possibly something else?) and finally it would not be a rehash of Clara as Lolita was introduced back in Toy Story which I believe was late 90s or early 2000s and most of the plan would have been laid down back when Miles in charge. (Which whilst no longer strongly adhered to is still followed in regards to characters). quick extra point you mentioned that people don’t come back to life in Doctor who or is affiliates. I would disagree strongly on that statement. The Doctor and the Master have both come back from seemingly permanent deaths like the Daleks and the Cybermen. Now on to the EU. Fitz went evil and was implied to be killed only to have their younger still good self brought back to life by killing a remembered version of himself in one book. And then that Evil Self is brought back to life later. The TARDIS Died and then was brought back to life in several parts of the EU. And this is not getting into the really nitty gritty side of the EU awe have not even reached Faction Paradox, which had real people come back to life. Like Grand Duchess Anastasia Romanov. In the form of Cousin Anastasia, Lord Byron came back, Cwej died and Came Back (in a the Bernice Summerfield crossover), this in fact how the Cult of celebrity death operates. And don’t get me started on Vlad the Impaler. also if this seems rude I apologise. Sorry. But it was not intended this way. I was just trying to politely debate with you. |
|
PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
|
Post by PI9090 on Aug 20, 2022 22:16:15 GMT
first of all you have to remember that Lolita is not simply a single humanoid Timeship. She is also part Yssgaroth, a Great Vampier, and in several places the Yssgaroth are implied not to be many but to be a single entity in many parts. And also the Timeships are arguably far more powerful than the Great House and could in fact be the Enemy according to several sources (well they are just as likely as say the sixth wave or an arachnid.) not to mention that a Timeship unchained would be incredibly powerful and are not a simple piece of machinery or a simply piece of biology that are pure and living Mathematics (until Compassion and her children). True but it also shouldn't be an excuse to have her just make her capable of whatever the writer wants her to be thats lazy and bad storytelling. I like the idea of that she had to make a decision between doing that or becoming a mother with the trade off being that it was one or the other with no possible reversal. Her making the decison to be a mother and going to the Timelords to make it happen would make for a good short character piece. But if she was capable of it or something similar maybe she purposely made them weaker, "echos" of herself so as to avoid them from either challenging her or getting in the way complicating things and or so they would focus on their part if the plan, (eg: Denison focused on being President and looking Earth's alledged Caldera). (Both, "Mother's plan" and Earth's alledged Caldera are topics that need threads of their own in time). I meant in the sense that she's a, "popular" character that, (in my opinion) seems to have outrun both her intended story but won't go away, (the story continuer trope incarnate). Lolitia plotted and schemed to take ultimate power, (as she considered it) and fell just as she succeeded due to the consequences of her previous actions catching up with her. To me having her come back just to repeat is dull and unecessary. Flesh out the time before she fell, (which is technically an eternity or several erased eternities) but not after unless it's about her being imprisoned in a cryogenic timelooped cell or her funeral, (which the War Master could attend as we know the Master survives into NuWho). Those recruited by the Cult of Celebrity Death didn't die and faked their own deaths or disapperances, (except for Dyavol but the less said about that mess the better) and Vlad did a deal with the Celestis? Maybe it's my dislike of character resurrections that are easy and without any real purpose as they just cheapen the stakes because death no longer matters. |
|
Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
|
Post by Anastasia on Aug 21, 2022 5:22:36 GMT
the Master survives into NuWho. You raise and interesting point. This may be a little bit of topic. Now NuWho’s relationship to the War in complicated their are several hints in faction Paradox that nuwho is happening at the same time or before the War or that it ma only be a bottle universe or oxbow reality. |
|
|
|
Post by doctornolonger on Aug 22, 2022 12:53:36 GMT
(which the War Master could attend as we know the Master survives into NuWho). I'll echo Anastasia in that I don't think it makes sense to assume that NuWho and FP are so linearly related, if they're related at all. There's the in-universe fact that the War King seems to be the maturest Master, analogous to the Doctor who retires as the Curator: much later in the Master's timeline than any "evil Master" incarnation we see in NuWho. Then there's the out-of-universe fact that having the mindset that everything has to end in these characters surviving, these places existing, etc, would artificially constrain the otherwise limitless storytelling potential of the FP series. Grappling with the complex timeline-placement of the Cwej series, which was crafted by many FP fans and writers, might be instructive here. I agree with you about death mattering, cheapened stakes, etc, for what it's worth. It's something that works great in Dr Who (luv Clara), but for the same reasons as the above, I'm not sure it makes sense to conflate FP with the rest of Dr Who (even the EDAs/VNAs) when it comes to treatment of character deaths, and there's a difference between "rewriting a real-person death from history" vs "rewriting a character death depicted in-story". But there are plenty of examples of the latter. Besides – well – the City of the Saved, the best example might be (SBJ books spoilers) Scarratt. |
|
|
|
Post by Aristide Twain on Aug 22, 2022 16:12:32 GMT
The War King's timeline is one of the most bizarrely contentious things in this fandom (and that's another thing he has in common with that Master fellow. Someone add it to the dossier!), so perhaps not the soundest thing to rely on either way. I think it is worth reiterating that, even if one accepts the canonicity of NuWho, who is alive in NuWho tells us little about who might die in Faction Paradox. Be it through The Ancestor Cell's events or something more involved, it is very plausible that the end of the War would involve (will involve, would have involved) its complete retroactive annulment. Versions of people who died in the course of the War might find themselves alive in the post-War continuum — divergent versions who never lived through the War at all. The primary example would be the Man with the Rosette, although I already said I wasn't going to talk about the War King's timeline…
|
|
PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
|
Post by PI9090 on Aug 23, 2022 11:56:27 GMT
How the war ended/canonwelding it is a topic for a separate thread as it is a major topic with alot of branching questions, (eg: If the war is retro annulled then the enemy still exists but does nothing? Is Gallifrey Prime restored or is it still hidden with Rassilon's Gallifrey 8 still in it's place?). I have some basic ideas about how it might work, (or at least how it'd appear to us lesser species) but I'd like to somehow talk to Mr Butcher-Jones about a few things before starting that discussion, (as Mr Miles has removed himself). *Insert Grandfarther Paradox joke here*
|
|
|
|
Post by doctornolonger on Aug 23, 2022 17:32:09 GMT
Too true. SBJ has hinted at one possible bridge between the series in his response to Day of the Doctor, "Faction Paradox Stands" (which I interpolated into one of my BotP Dossier entries). I've indexed that blog post and others like it in on my own blog. |
|
|
|
Post by bumbles on Sept 1, 2022 9:57:39 GMT
It depends on whether you think Head of State takes place before or after True History. If before: Oh look, Lolita is impersonating another ruler to take over another era of Earth history, thank goodness Compassion and Justine cleaned this up offscreen.
If after: GAH THE VAMPIRE LADY IS BACK AND HAS A CALDERA It’s gotta be after, surely? |
|
