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Post by doctornolonger on Nov 27, 2022 18:50:03 GMT
The apparent inability of Vlad III to die has led to a great deal of speculation, and a great deal of inaccuracy.Welcome back to the Book Club of the War, and apologies for the untimely hiatus! Thanks again to Philip Purser-Hallard for stopping by our "City of the Saved" thread. Now we move from one type of undead to another with The Impaler's Story, which is really two alphabetical chains in a single chunk: - Tirgoviste (p. 199-200)
- Ulterior Worlds (p. 202-203)
- Vlad III (p. 210-211)
- Wallachia (p. 213-214)
- Djinn (p. 45)
- Edimmu (p. 50)
- Gragov (p. 73–75)
- Halved Birth (p. 82-83)
- Investigators (p. 101–102)
- Investigator 31 (p. 102–103)
- Mark of Indenture (p. 121–122)
- Poenari Relic (p. 153–154)
- Rasputin (p. 159-161)
Next up is The Thirteen-Day Republic!
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 149
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Nov 27, 2022 19:37:13 GMT
I myself do like how Vlad fights the Vampiers, I personally wonder what he got up to in the years between making the pact and his eventually death.
Oh and I just want to double check the Poenari Relic is the Head of the Presidency?
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Post by garyshots on Nov 27, 2022 22:00:58 GMT
Blimey, now I'm behind again. Never mind. Once more unto the breach.
Investigator Eighteen's trials reference the lovely old Powell and Pressburger film A Matter of Life and Death, which I need to see again now.
Investigator Thirty-One is obsessed with his alleged "descent from the gypsy-stock of old Earth", and was formerly "the Great Nobodaddy, master assassin of the posthuman era of history". But as we know our Blake, we know that Nobodaddy was just his insulting nickname for Urizen. Hmm. Where did we read about Urizen? Well, if we turn back to Eremites we find it was their insulting nickname for Rassilon, and that they were the universe's original gypsies in the form of the First Diaspora. Is Thirty-One in fact an amnesiac Eremite or confused descendant thereof? Are his "gypsy clan" of servants, "some kind of distinct bloodline... faceless and devoid of any personality" actually projections of his potential regenerations, a bit like the Watcher in Logopolis?
The attack of the Gargoyles of Gragov also seems familiar. If we turn back to Maltese Incident, we find Byron and Company attacked by "giants... with wings and bestial faces", and the narrator pauses to note that this description doesn't correspond with the Malakh of Earth mythology. It seems more likely that Byron blundered into Mictlan than that he successfully invaded the realm of the Malakh. And Mark of Indenture says: "Then again, if someone is ambitious enough to attack the Celestis's own realm then the Celestis may feel they're well within their rights to kill the intruder themselves and then save him or her from this "certain death" by brokering a deal." Did Byron sell his soul? Is that why he faked his death and defected to the Faction, in order to escape his Mark of Indenture? And most importantly, is that why he kept freaking out at poor old Hobby-O? #JusticeforHobhouse
The insane cruelty of Vlad III is reminiscent of the Yssgaroth and their descendants, the tainted Babels. Could there be a connection? We're told that he was "certainly not one of the undead", though his dad was buried alive because he was believed to be infected, and his brother "Radu the Handsome" could be one of the warriors "with remarkable grace or beauty" mentioned under Order of the Dragon. Was he the only member of the family who wasn't a Malakh? But what was he trying to achieve with the elaborate ritual sacrifices? Was he, like Thessalia, led astray by a seductive rogue Babel?
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PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
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Post by PI9090 on Nov 30, 2022 1:50:07 GMT
DjinnArabian interpretation Mal'akh origins on Earth. The Arabian name for the Ysggaroth infected Timelord Rebels mentioned in the Book of Enoch. (the leader called, "Azazel" then, "Eblis, an angel born of fire"). mythology.net/demons/azazel/Azazel was one of the most powerful and clever angels, (an important figure in Pythia's mtriachy?) who sympathised with Lucifer, (the rebel leader?). Became the leader of a group of fallen angels that mated with human women the, "Gigori", that resulted in Mal'akh then taught humanity warfare and weapon making, (fighting the Mal'akh?). Somehow captured and controlled by King Solomon in manner that ended with his death. After Solomon's death they took and bred his harem producing the Peri, (Mal'akh). The Arabian Mal'akh, (the, "Peri") can additionally manipulate sandstorms. the Ifrit maybe the Arabian name for the Edimmu, including the Grotesques's leader, "The King of Beasts". Edimmugenies.fandom.com/wiki/EdimmuThe Mal'akh's ruling body known in Assyrian and Babylonian mythology as, "The Council of Seven". Consists of the seven stronget, (possibly immortal) Mal'akh. The Liber Sanguisgarum states they are the Star Chamber's direct counterpart and opposition. Rages against humanity: spill their bllod like rain, devouring their flesh, and sucking their viens. Legends date back to the first millenium .B.C. but still hardly anything is known about them. Described by may mythologies as evil air spirits that sucked the life out of the suspectible and the sleeping, (most commonly the young). (So not conventionally vampiric like the Mal'akh). Good ones were callled, "Shedu". The Poenari RelicThe ex President's headless body was left on the Bucharest battlefield by the enemy and perhaps the Ottoman Turks. Another relic with valuable Presidential biodata buried on Earth, would their be any effects? The preservative used was honey like. The S'tanim, (Hebrew for adverseries and is thus the enemy), entrusted the head to the Order of the Dragon to protect until the end of time when it would be returned to heaven, (Gallifrey after the Faraway Declaration). What did we learn abuot the enemy?87.Used a honey like substance to preserve the ex President's head and perhaps kee it alive. 88.Entrusted the ex President's head to the Order of the Dragon for safe keeping until the end of time when theyy would return it to Gallifrey after The Faraway Declaration.
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leahhh
Little Sibling
Posts: 36
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Post by leahhh on Dec 15, 2022 22:47:02 GMT
So Vlad lived for 500 years thanks to... sheer stubborn bloody-mindedness? (Well, if anyone had a bloody mind...)
Seriously, though. He wasn't Mal'akh tainted. He wasn't a Celestis agent, at least not in life. The Book seems to present the idea that he used Order of the Dragon ritual knowledge - which no other Order members apparently used. I feel like something else is going on here.
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Post by garyshots on Dec 16, 2022 20:34:01 GMT
I think there's a lot about Vlad III that we left on the bone the first time. I may go back and read through it again.
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Bongo50
Little Sibling
Currently reading The Book of the War
Posts: 44
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Post by Bongo50 on Dec 24, 2022 17:28:58 GMT
This set of entries was quite fun as it gave me the oppotunity to learn a bit about an area of history that I didn't know much about before, even if it is all heavily fictionalised.
I liked the entry on the Djinn because of the way it explains religious stories and legends using the science fantasy elements of Faction Paradox. This is something I've liked about other similar entries as well. As an atheist, I find religious stories interesting as just that: stories. Having this world that I already consider to be an interesting fictional series built up even more is a lot of fun.
The Investigators were a lot fun. In particular, Investigator Thirty-One feels like they could be a really fun character to explore further. Investigator Eighteen also sounds really interesting. Investigator spin-off anyone?
The Mark of Indenture reminds me a lot of stories of people selling their soul to the devil and stuff. Perhaps the Celestis could be the origin of these stories? As far as I understand it, the Devil is a fallen angel from Heaven. The Celestis mirror in this in some ways by previously being Homeworlders that have now fallen from grace as they became the Celestis. That would liken the Great Houses to angels and the Homeworld to Heaven. Further, the War is sometimes called the War in Heaven... The Great Houses do act very god-like at times. The analogy starts to break down, however, when considering the other major factions, notably the Enemy: if the Celestis are devils, who are the Enemy? Lord Asriel?
Rasputin's entry was a lot of fun. The idea of there being 3 of him in the City of the Saved, all claiming to be the true Rasputin and plotting each other's downfall while being mostly ignored by the general populus, is quite ammusing. Moreover, the way in which Rasputin's somewhat legendary death is explained away by the quite ammusing interference of 3 major War powers is cool. Oh, those Russians...
I look forward to the next set of entries. The Thirteen Day Republic has always sounded interesting to me but I've never looked into what it is yet so I'm excited to finally find out.
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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 24, 2022 18:57:22 GMT
The analogy starts to break down, however, when considering the other major factions, notably the Enemy: if the Celestis are devils, who are the Enemy? There are lots of different devil/demon figures in FP. The Celestis are absolutely one of them (the Book explicitly describes them as “fallen”!). But then, so are the Eremites, who retreated to a network of tunnels when, in antediluvian times, they seceded from the other archangels-to-be; the Eremites are after all serial-numbers-filed-off Cenobites (the Cenobites being very explicitly one vision of Christian-style hellish demons in their franchise of origin). Then, yes, of course, there is “the Enemy”… “ Satan” is, notably, originally just a title which translates as “the Adversary” or “the Enemy” rather than a name; this is also why Tolkien often has his characters refer to Sauron as “the Enemy”. In terms of individual devils, the Grandfather is not without shades, as the archetypal Rebel who was cast out for his transgressions, and took refuge in an Empire of firey red and black shadows — but we would also be remiss not to mention the War King… |
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Post by garyshots on Jan 7, 2023 22:53:47 GMT
So Vlad lived for 500 years thanks to... sheer stubborn bloody-mindedness? (Well, if anyone had a bloody mind...) Seriously, though. He wasn't Mal'akh tainted. He wasn't a Celestis agent, at least not in life. The Book seems to present the idea that he used Order of the Dragon ritual knowledge - which no other Order members apparently used. I feel like something else is going on here. One quick and dirty answer might be that it's to do with the "substance not unlike honey" in which the Poenari relic was preserved, "kept alive to witness the whole run of creation". (Albeit "frozen, horrified", and it doesn't sound like it was speaking.) The Order had the relic before Vlad. Did the "honey" need to be refreshed every so often? Did he know how the Order produced it, or from whom they had been sourcing it? Could he have siphoned off a few sips? |
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Post by garyshots on Jan 8, 2023 0:11:12 GMT
As was foretold, I had another look through the Vlad-related entries, starting with Order of the Dragon in Week Eight.
It's quite a disturbing section, isn't it? I realise that Vlad III's cruelty is historical, but we're not reading a story of mere human cruelty.
Vlad II took on the name of "the Dragon", presumably after the Order of the Dragon, and Vlad III was thus Son of the Dragon. A footnote mentions that "in the local dialect, "dragon" and "devil" are interchangeable". This takes us back to the Order's emblem and the provenance of their relics. I now think the Eremites brought the Poenari relic and the Liber Sanguisugarum from the "high place", and that the "devil/dragon" of the Order and the Vlads is Azazel/Shemjaza.
Vlad III "was initiated into the Christian mysteries" of the Order "as a child" and "considered it his place to be a conduit for the higher forces", was "schooled by an elderly veteran of the wars" against the Mal'akh, "had some schooling in ritualism" and had "provably encountered eastern ritualistic techniques" in Adrianople. It does seem like he was trying to summon somebody with his concentric circles of impaled corpses, but not necessarily the Celestis.
Vlad III says that the Tirgoviste massacre of 1461 "was the beginning of a chain of events which would ensure Vlad's unexpected longevity," which doesn't sound like he was "simply too stubborn to die". It continues: "He would have had some knowledge of non-human lore by this point, but it's unlikely he'd ever encountered anything truly monstrous before 1461". It mentions that Vlad III once "drove nails through the heads of visiting diplomats". Two sentences later, same paragraph, we get the anecdote about him seeing the bodies of the monks he'd tortured to death "some weeks previously" and having them burnt because they "offended his eye". We're later told that he was "thought to have been Marked around 1462", i.e. at Gragov or Poenari, not Tirgoviste. So what monstrous powers did he meet in those weeks in 1461 that changed his mind about the monks?
At Gragov Vlad III was "described as moving among his forces like some kind of predatory beast, not just the ruthless warrior-prince but a kind of living death on the battlefield." He sounds hardly human. There are similar stories about him fighting with "the rage of a giant beast (or suchlike)" at the Poenari siege, but this time we're told it was probably Investigator Thirty-One, who was "commonly thought" to have "some connection to Prince Vlad". Was Thirty-One filling in for him at Gragov as well? And if he eventually executed Vlad III, why did it take him five hundred years?
There's a lot going on here, but to me it seems clear that there are at least three powers at work: the Mal'akh (Vlad III is trying to fight them and wants powerful allies), the Celestis (Vlad III accidentally summons them and ends up indentured) and the Eremites (Vlad III tries to summon them, succeeds at Tirgoviste, and gets a nasty shock?). Thirty-One's role remains mysterious, but if he's a secret Eremite, that must be significant somehow.
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Post by garyshots on Jan 24, 2023 23:29:52 GMT
I've now reminded myself that Hollywood Bowl Shooting in Week Fifteen reports Lady Wakai, of the "almost vampiric" features, insisting that her prisoners should "have their legs broken and [be] impaled on spikes". So was Lolita Vlad III's vampire muse when he devised his theatre of cruelty?
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PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
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Post by PI9090 on Jan 27, 2023 23:58:08 GMT
More likely their just both equally sadistically sick as each other.
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