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Post by foefromthefuture on Oct 21, 2022 4:03:27 GMT
Please excuse me if this has been asked before (because it definitely seems to be the kind of thing that SHOULD have been asked before), but I’m a little confused about the multiple Sabbaths in BBV’s “Faction Paradox Protocols”. We have two very distinct characters - 1) Godfather Sabbath, who is mentioned in “The Eleven Day Empire” and “The Shadow Play” and appears in flashbacks in “Movers” and “A Labyrinth of Histories”, as well as the Sabbath who is a member of the Secret Service (and eventually becomes an agent of the Great Houses) who appears in “Sabbath Dei” and “The Year of the Cat”.
Obviously the latter of these two is the same character (or at least a version of the same character) who is first introduced in print in the novel “The Adventuress of Henrietta Street” and whose allegiances are sometimes aligned, sometimes at odds with the Renegade who is the subject of that other series that sometimes features Faction Paradox.
So what’s going on here? Why are there two relatively important characters named Sabbath? I admit to not reading about very many of Sabbath’s appearances in the EDAs (other than the aforementioned “Adventuress of Henrietta Street”), so I don’t know if something else is being alluded to. The only mention of this bizarre coincidence in the actual dialogue of the Faction Paradox Protocols occurs when Cousin Eliza first meets Secret Service Sabbath (now there’s alliteration on overdrive!) and, when he tells her his name, she says, “I used to have a Godfather called Sabbath. Didn’t look much like you, though.” The scripts to the Faction Paradox Protocols specify that they are NOT the same character, and they should NOT be played by the same actor, so I’m at a loss with regards to how they might be connected. Is one a regenerated version of the other? Are they somehow different iterations of the same person? Or - and this seems to be the least satisfying answer of them all - do they simply have the same name?
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AloeVega
Grandparent
Posts: 25
Preferred Pronouns: They/Them
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Post by AloeVega on Oct 21, 2022 4:29:44 GMT
The reason Sabbath Dei and Godfather Sabbath have the same name is because Lawrence Miles wanted to disprove the idea that you should never have two unrelated characters with the same name in your story.
That's it. That's the whole reason.
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Post by Aristide Twain on Oct 21, 2022 8:18:07 GMT
Yep. Notably, Godfather Sabbath's Mujun counterpart is called “Nichiyōbi”, which means Sunday, while Sabbath Dei of the Service took on the name of “Sabbath” in allusion to being inducted on a Saturday: the Godfather is named for the Christian Sabbath while the Serviceman is named for the Jewish Sabbath.
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Post by foefromthefuture on Oct 21, 2022 13:36:28 GMT
The reason Sabbath Dei and Godfather Sabbath have the same name is because Lawrence Miles wanted to disprove the idea that you should never have two unrelated characters with the same name in your story. That's it. That's the whole reason. Wow. You know, it’s funny: I said in my original post that the two characters just having the same name would be “the least satisfying answer of them all”, but now that you’ve told me that, I totally take it back. It’s actually brilliant. The fact that he did it with such an original name (rather than having another “Eliza”, for example) makes it hit home all the more. The first time I heard “The Eleven Day Empire” I had not yet read “Adventuress”. However, much had already been made of the EDAs’ imminent introduction of the character of Sabbath in the Doctor Who media (“Doctor Who Magazine” and so on), so when I first heard Godfather Sabbath’s name mentioned in the audio I just assumed that this was the Sabbath everyone was talking about. As far as I remember, I think I then read “Adventuress” before the release of “Sabbath Dei”. By then, I think I just assumed that the Godfather Sabbath mentioned in the first two audios was just a later iteration of Secret Service Sabbath we had been introduced to in “Sabbath Dei”. It was only when I heard “Movers” and “Labyrinth of Histories” that I realized that it seemed to be a different character entirely. One question for you: what is your source for this little tidbit? Did Lawrence Miles talk about this fact in an interview? Is this pretty general knowledge? (Although I’ve read/listened to a LOT of Faction Paradox, I’ve had very little exposure to the fan community. Also it’s been many years since I’ve read some of those early books). |
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Post by foefromthefuture on Oct 21, 2022 13:48:03 GMT
Yep. Notably, Godfather Sabbath's Mujun counterpart is called “Nichiyōbi”, which means Sunday, while Sabbath Dei of the Service took on the name of “Sabbath” in allusion to being inducted on a Saturday: the Godfather is named for the Christian Sabbath while the Serviceman is named for the Jewish Sabbath. Fascinating. I’m realizing I need to reacquaint myself with the whole Faction Hollywood narrative. Maybe I should start following the “Book Club of the War” posts as a way of fully rereading the Faction Paradox “bible”! I also need to reread “Head of State”. Actually, to be honest, now that I’ve discovered this fan community, maybe I’ll just reread everything! 🤪 |
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Post by doctornolonger on Oct 21, 2022 14:48:54 GMT
I've conferred with Lawrence about this, and he's given me permission to clear up the Sabbaths business. Here's the official word: Sabbath and Godfather Sabbath are, in fact, two entirely separate individuals who just happen to have the same name. Again, Lawrence's intent was to play on the convention that people in the same series never *coincidentally* have the same name. But in this case, it's true. There's two ritualists --- one working for the British Secret Service, one working for Faction Paradox --- and they happen to share the same name. But that's all. The Sabbath who works for the Secret Service is the *same* individual who appears in audios #3 and #4, the comic series and the EDAs. Godfather Sabbath was mentioned in audios #1 (and maybe #2... I don't remember) and appeared in flashback in audios #5 (and maybe #6... I just got that one in-stock and haven't heard it). So there we are. They're two entirely separate individuals. Oh, and I think it's also okay to mention that obviously, the two Sabbaths will be meeting up at *some* point in the audio range. |
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RGBoyd
Little Sibling
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Post by RGBoyd on Oct 22, 2022 10:23:20 GMT
That's it. That's the whole reason. Always find it really funny how sworn enemy Moffat does the same thing in Silence of The Library (Dave, Other Dave) but in an easily more natural, funny, less distracting, less obtuse way. |
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Post by foefromthefuture on Oct 22, 2022 13:32:36 GMT
I've conferred with Lawrence about this, and he's given me permission to clear up the Sabbaths business. Here's the official word: Sabbath and Godfather Sabbath are, in fact, two entirely separate individuals who just happen to have the same name. Oh, and I think it's also okay to mention that obviously, the two Sabbaths will be meeting up at *some* point in the audio range. This is obviously a very old quote, but it really gives us a tantalizing look at what might have been. Obviously, Lawrence Miles had very specific plans for the audio series (I heard him mention in an interview once that he had, like, fifty episodes planned!) and most of these plans were scuppered when Magic Bullet took over the franchise. It’s too bad, as we never heard again (in audio format, at least) from Compassion, Lord Sandwich, the Seur d’Eon and, most significantly Sabbath himself. And although I do now get that they were completely different characters, it seems to me that they might have had SOMETHING more to them, particularly if Miles was planning on them meeting up eventually. Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely adore the Magic Bullet series. But it was obviously intended as a self-contained story right from the very beginning, whereas the BBV series was far more open-ended. |
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Post by Aristide Twain on Oct 22, 2022 14:56:09 GMT
and, most significantly Sabbath himself. Hey.
(Or did you mean the Godfather?) With regards to the early plans for the Godfather, it is notable that according to Mujun, “Nichiyobi” also escaped the destruction of the Eleven-Day Empire-equivalent alongside the Justine and Eliza equivalents. That's not yet been followed up on. |
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Dec 31, 2022 12:54:39 GMT
That's it. That's the whole reason. Always find it really funny how sworn enemy Moffat does the same thing in Silence of The Library (Dave, Other Dave) but in an easily more natural, funny, less distracting, less obtuse way. Proper Sabbath and Other Sabbath. |
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