AloeVega
Grandparent
Posts: 25
Preferred Pronouns: They/Them
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Post by AloeVega on Oct 17, 2022 19:03:00 GMT
I'm currently in the process of rereading the excellent novel Warlords of Utopia, so here's a thread to discuss the novel and anything interesting you've noticed in it. The first time I read this book I assumed the old man at the start of the novel from whom Marcus acquires the bangle that allows him to travel to different versions of history was a member of the Great Houses. However, when the old man shows up, he's described like this: So this seems to be marking him as a member of the Great Houses, but when an actual, indisputable member of the Great Houses shows up he's described like a capital-G God, capitalized pronouns and all: Obviously, this is a much more grand description than the first old man got. But more damning, I think, is the description that Herr Abschrift (a Cwej-Prime) is given: Abschrift (who, as a Cwej, is decidedly not a member of the Great Houses proper) is described basically the same way as the old man. And, even more blatant, when the old man first appears, the narrator says: This might just be a case of me reading too much into things (...as I often do with stories), but I think there might be something to the idea that the old man at the start of Warlords of Utopia is in fact meant to be a regen-inf soldier, not a member of the Great Houses. And if this is the case, could this slightly change the significance of the Enemy-associated cyclops who was hunting the old man down?
Interesting to think about, in any case, and I'd be interested to hear everybody's thoughts on this, and any other things that might've gone unnoticed in this book.
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
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Post by Anastasia on Oct 17, 2022 19:14:28 GMT
I always assumed that the old man was something similar to I.M.Forman (the Mention of 13 Renegades and what do we know also has 13 things?) in that he was not quite a member Great House but a a Proto House member or perhaps even a Post Homeworlder?
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Post by sonorous on Oct 18, 2022 11:03:10 GMT
Reading through this post, it's clear that I'm due for a re-read.
On my initial read-through I assumed the man who he got the bangle from was just a more advanced German (maybe even Hitler himself from farther along in war timeline) That said I'm sure there's some line that completely disproves that and I just missed it.
As for Abshrift being a Cwej, I saw zero indication of that and im really bummed I missed it.
This is an on-going problem with my readings of these books, I miss all the lore bits that should probably be obvious.
What about him in the book pointed to him being a Cwej?
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AloeVega
Grandparent
Posts: 25
Preferred Pronouns: They/Them
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Post by AloeVega on Oct 18, 2022 15:06:24 GMT
As for Abshrift being a Cwej, I saw zero indication of that and im really bummed I missed it... What about him in the book pointed to him being a Cwej? Definitely don't worry about not noticing this - I didn't notice it the first time I read either! The main indicator that Abschrift is a Cwej is his name, which is German for "copy". This, combined with the fact that he's employed by the Homeworld and with his appearance, seems to indicate that he's a Cwej. This also explains why he said whether or not he is from Earth is "a matter for the philosophers" - Chris Cwej was from Earth, but Abschrift was a copy of him.
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Post by doctornolonger on Oct 18, 2022 15:36:40 GMT
Great observation AloeVega! I always just thought him as a member of the Great Houses, just like how I thought for far too long that the strange creature Scriptor encounters was a sphinx from Dead Romance… That said, like Anastasia said, the fact that the old man was accompanied by "twelve of his friends", for a total of 13, was just too I.M. Foreman-esque for me to consider any alternate explanations. Maybe the distinction is that the God of the finale was a member of the ruling Houses, with all the rights and privileges thereof, whereas the old man was merely a member of House Military, like Abschrift? What about him in the book pointed to him being a Cwej? It's very explicit that Abschrift is an agent of the greater powers: he is the one who "enabled" the Hitlers to meet in Council; he melts Scriptor's time ring just by looking at it; and he was sent by the God to "contain the situation". In that final scene, Marcus is even attacked by multiple blonde "Abschriften":But in the end, this is a case where biliteracy clinches it: Abschrift is German for "copy"! Hmm. Going back to the topic of this thread – while reading that final scene, this bit stood out to me: Scriptor tells the God,Surely that's in reference to the old man from the start of the novel, confirming that they're of the same "kind"?
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Post by Peterchu on Oct 20, 2022 21:49:45 GMT
Or maybe Scriptor assumes that this God is of the same kind as the creature he earlier encounters... After all, that creature can shapeshift.
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Post by doctornolonger on Nov 3, 2022 14:54:23 GMT
Or maybe Scriptor assumes that this God is of the same kind as the creature he earlier encounters... After all, that creature can shapeshift. I've been thinking about this some more. Relevant excerpt from Warlords in the spoiler. The creature has special protections against temporal interference. It refers to "brothers". Its bestial forms remind me of the regen-inf soldiers, but active shapeshifting is a different matter, and the golden face thing is weird. When asked if it was on the opposite side as the old man, it says "Oh … not me. You know what they say: your enemy's enemy." This is ambiguous: if we read it as "Enemy's enemy", it could be saying they both worked for the Houses, as the old man certainly appears to be from the Houses; or if we read it the other way, it could place them on the same side, mirroring the fractured or procedural sense of the Enemy. "Thought we wouldn't find you?" makes it sound like the creature is from the group that the old man was running away from. But on the other hand, if the creature thought the old man would be attacking their shared enemy, whether the Enemy or the Houses, why dedication to the point of "wasting a century or two" to stop him? So are the creature and the old man on the same side, or opposite sides? It seems to be deliberately written to read it both ways. When you add in this thread's uncertainty as to whether or not the old man is from the Houses, the confusion multiplies! On the other hand: Sic gorgiamus alios subjectatos nunc – fake Latin for "We gladly feast on those who would subdue us", the motto of the Addams Family. Terrestrial pop culture references – who does that remind you of? "We are not amused." My conclusion is that, perhaps because of its in-universe unreliable narration, Warlords of Utopia is a great example of a book that not only makes sense independently from the context of the FP franchise, it's actively less confusing when considered independently from that context! 😁
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Post by darkspine10 on Dec 14, 2022 13:16:48 GMT
I'd love to read this book, but have been thwarted twice now by it getting lost in the post. I ordered it from a US seller to deliver to the UK, and somehow on both occasions, after weeks of waiting for delivery, the book ended up missing in transit. Now there isn't a single copy to be bought either on Amazon or Ebay. It's maddening, the book is now impossible to acquire despite my best efforts. It's worse even than the extortionate copies Lungbarrow that go for a thousand quid, at least those exist.
Every other book from the FP range can be bought as an ebook, all except for Warlords.
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Post by Ettolrahc Dvora on Jan 4, 2023 11:37:14 GMT
I'd love to read this book, but have been thwarted twice now by it getting lost in the post. I ordered it from a US seller to deliver to the UK, and somehow on both occasions, after weeks of waiting for delivery, the book ended up missing in transit. Now there isn't a single copy to be bought either on Amazon or Ebay. It's maddening, the book is now impossible to acquire despite my best efforts. It's worse even than the extortionate copies Lungbarrow that go for a thousand quid, at least those exist. Every other book from the FP range can be bought as an ebook, all except for Warlords. I empathise with you, darkspine. I really want to buy this book but can't find it anywhere. That being said, check your DMs
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Jan 4, 2023 12:37:04 GMT
I had no idea that Warlords was so hard to find now. I'm pretty glad I got it when I did.
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Post by darkspine10 on May 24, 2023 20:30:36 GMT
Finally managed to read this book recently, and really enjoyed Parkin's romp through Roman history. It was intriguing to have protagonists with slightly skewed morals to our own today: The reveal about Scriptor's wife Angela that anyone who's read the book knows about absolutely floored me. I really bought into the portrayal of the alternate Rome's histories and the different views on slavery and honour from our own. The book's premise is an absolutely delightful use of the FP setting to tell what would seem on the surface to be an unworkable mess in a compelling way. It may only be on the edge of the War, but the hints that were dropped remained fascinating little glimpses.
I really appreciate how out of the first three FP novels, all three have askew portrayals of the Faction and its direct lore. This Town Will Never Let Us Go was a pared back approach only lightly delving into the actual backstories of the groups involved, while Of the City of the Saved features more pre-established characters and settings, but still keeps the Faction itself as a more minor element at play (and through Avatar they're portrayed as a bit bumbling and outplayed). Warlords carried on this tradition by having the only Faction member to actually show up be the hilariously on-the-nose Consobrinus Patreulis, whose main role is simply to give the Romans a leg up against the Nazis. For a group defined by skirting around the edges of history and influencing things indirectly, it's cool to me that they stay out of the limelight so much in these early books.
It contributes to the sense that FP is 'radically approachable' (or similar phrasing I picked up from a recommended list once), despite the patina of inaccessibility it has in the Who fandom at large. I read Warring States soon after Warlords, and it makes a nice contrast to the first three books, by finally foregrounding a Faction protagonist and having a more conventional structure.
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