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Post by quicksilverkitling on Sept 14, 2022 10:29:21 GMT
When reading about the Eleven-Day Empire, I was rather amused at the exact days of September 1752 that constitute the Empire -- more or less the days of September 2022* that we've spent in the Book Club itself!
(Although since said days have been a little tumultuous for me, I wouldn't mind selling them to anyone willing to buy them and retroactively excise them from my timeline... but we are where we are!)
*perhaps presumptuous of me to assume we're all writing in from the same year.
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Post by doctornolonger on Sept 14, 2022 15:45:39 GMT
A few people have mentioned the four lieutenants, which are one of my favorite mysteries of the House Paradox period. We love to speculate about the Grandfather, but at least his earlier appearances told us that he was a member of House Lungbarrow. We know even less than that for the others! One performed a shadow dance before the Gregorian Compact, and there the answers end. Were there any other details I missed? Presumably they were the original Godparents of the Faction's four wings? -The Caldera is referred to on the Homeworld as a "womb", which is weird given the Homeworld's aversion to thinking of itself and its technology in a biological sense. Is this just how the reference is interpreted by lesser species outside of the Homeworld, or is something else on the Homeworld making that reference. garyshots alluded to this briefly, but "womb" is the literal meaning of the world "matrix". When I first read The Book, after having seen NuWho, I simply interpreted the caldera as a rebranded Untempered Schism, but in reality it's actually earlier and much weirder. With the Matrix, some of the details clearly match: the caldera is a womb, and in "Toy Story" Lilith and her sister call the Matrix "Mother"; and both are what make the Great Houses "Lords of Time", although there's no mention of the caldera storing the minds of dead academicians. Very radical reinvention of the concept. Speaking of initial misunderstandings, when I first heard about the 11DE I imagined a hard scifi setting where on day eleven, everyone packs up and teleports to the start of the loop, taking great care to avoid bumping into their hundreds of prior selves from past and future loops. I still think such a place might be a good setting for a story, but the Empire as actually described here is much different! And it makes sense, since there weren't 11 literal days to sell: the Faction bought the perception of missing time, which in the worried minds of Londoners grew to centuries in magnitude. It's a fun peek at the logic of a pre-anchoring universe – or, maybe, a post-Homeworld universe. Interesting stuff.
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Post by garyshots on Sept 14, 2022 16:58:57 GMT
Are the four lieutenants the Grandfather's equivalents of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? He does have an Infancy Gospel. Were they recruited from four different Great Houses and dispatched to evangelise to four different great powers on Earth: Britain, France, etc? Did the French lieutenant have a love interest?
More seriously, is the Shadow Dance from the comics? I need to reread those. It's been a long time!
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Post by Aristide Twain on Sept 14, 2022 18:06:33 GMT
Re: the four elemental - two of those Elementals ARE members of that bloodline (the Man with the Wigg Rosette is the Master/War King), the others are a de facto Imperator (and member of House Dvora -Romana) and a random element (the Minister of Chance - someone who was severed from his Houseworld connection). Not to clog up the thread with non-directly- BotW-related lore talk, but I disagree that the Woman with Long Blond Hair is necessarily Romana! The latest-known Post-War Romana in the EDAs isn't a blonde at all. The most obvious candidate for who Parkin intended the Woman to be is, I think, Larna. It's anyone's guess what House Larna is from, of course. (And the Emperor is of course Dr Who, who I don't think is part of House Dvora at all.)
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Post by Aristide Twain on Sept 14, 2022 18:22:15 GMT
When I first read The Book, after having seen NuWho, I simply interpreted the caldera as a rebranded Untempered Schism, but in reality it's actually earlier and much weirder. With the Matrix, some of the details clearly match: the caldera is a womb, and in "Toy Story" Lilith and her sister call the Matrix "Mother"; and both are what make the Great Houses "Lords of Time", although there's no mention of the caldera storing the minds of dead academicians. Very radical reinvention of the concept. I agree there seems to be something to the Matrix connection, but anachronistic Schism aside, surely the most obvious candidate for the transfigured Who concept is the Eye of Harmony? Engineered black-hole-type thingie at the very core of the Lords of Time's power, central lodestone of the Web of Time… (A maverick thought occurs, but I'll spoiler it since it involves elements from future installments of the Book Club: if the "One" Umbaste glimpsed in the Caldera is indeed important to the nature of the Enemy, then could it be that the War Kin got his mysterious foreknowledge about the Enemy simply as a result of falling into the Eye of Harmony/Caldera in The TV Movie?… )
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Sept 14, 2022 18:36:39 GMT
When I first read The Book, after having seen NuWho, I simply interpreted the caldera as a rebranded Untempered Schism, but in reality it's actually earlier and much weirder. With the Matrix, some of the details clearly match: the caldera is a womb, and in "Toy Story" Lilith and her sister call the Matrix "Mother"; and both are what make the Great Houses "Lords of Time", although there's no mention of the caldera storing the minds of dead academicians. Very radical reinvention of the concept. I agree there seems to be something to the Matrix connection, but anachronistic Schism aside, surely the most obvious candidate for the transfigured Who concept is the Eye of Harmony? Engineered black-hole-type thingie at the very core of the Lords of Time's power, central lodestone of the Web of Time… (A maverick thought occurs, but I'll spoiler it since it involves elements from future installments of the Book Club: if the "One" Umbaste glimpsed in the Caldera is indeed important to the nature of the Enemy, then could it be that the War Kin got his mysterious foreknowledge about the Enemy simply as a result of falling into the Eye of Harmony/Caldera in The TV Movie?… ) well that dose make sense in regards to the Great Black Ey briefly glimpsed in the Doctor who magazine story “the Glorious Dead”
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leahhh
Little Sibling
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Post by leahhh on Sept 14, 2022 19:10:24 GMT
surely the most obvious candidate for the transfigured Who concept is the Eye of Harmony? Engineered black-hole-type thingie at the very core of the Lords of Time's power, central lodestone of the Web of Time… I'm not sure I agree. The caldera is a hole, yes, but it's not really a black hole - it's a crater left behind on the Homeworld's surface by the Yssgaroth, whereas the Eye is pretty consistently described as a collapsed star. The Eye is also more frequently presented as 'the engine of time travel' than 'the center of the Web of Time', and it's not at all clear to me that the caldera acts as an engine. It's definitely possible that the caldera was intended by the authors to be the Eye, but if I was forced to pick one way or the other I'd say that the Eye/Qqaba is one thing, and the caldera/(Matrix?) is another. That said, I love your idea under the spoiler - that's almost good enough to justify the caldera=Eye identification by itself.
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Post by garyshots on Sept 14, 2022 19:42:05 GMT
The thing is, the Caldera isn't the Matrix. It isn't, you know. There's precious little that we learn about the Caldera in The Book of the War that corresponds with what we learn about the Matrix in Doctor Who on t'telly. If it weren't for the "womb" clue, and if we hadn't read Toy Story etc, we wouldn't even make the connection.
The Caldera is what the Faction Paradox universe has instead of the Matrix. It occupies the same space in the culture of the Great Houses that the Matrix does in the culture of the Time Lords. So why can't it be instead of the Matrix and the Eye of Harmony?
Or am I completely wrong?
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Post by garyshots on Sept 14, 2022 19:53:29 GMT
If Grandfather Paradox is played by Ronnie Barker (because of Fletcher from Porridge), then at least one of the lieutenants obviously has to be played by Richard Beckinsale (who played Godber, Fletcher's impressionable younger cellmate). And what was the name of Beckinsale's other famous character, in Rising Damp? Alan Moore.
Having thought about this, I'm pretty sure that the other three lieutenants must be played by Don Warrington (obviously playing a cousin from the same House as Rassilon), Leonard Rossiter and of course Frances de la Tour.
Too silly?
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Post by Aristide Twain on Sept 14, 2022 20:09:06 GMT
I'm not sure I agree. The caldera is a hole, yes, but it's not really a black hole - it's a crater left behind on the Homeworld's surface by the Yssgaroth, whereas the Eye is pretty consistently described as a collapsed star. The Eye is also more frequently presented as 'the engine of time travel' than 'the center of the Web of Time', and it's not at all clear to me that the caldera acts as an engine. Oh yes, I'm not saying it lines up perfectly — just more readily so than Matrix=Caldera! We do have to remember that in the Interference "flashback" quoted in Week One, we see the Yssgaroth collapsing stars into more black-suns through which more Great Vampires swarm into the universe. So Miles does think of "collapsing stars" and "portals to the Spiral Yssgaroth" as very much contiguous things… The Eye of Harmony being a mere power-source is, of course, what many BBC people have claimed it was, but Miles has never let boring takes on Gallifrey lore stop him from taking more interesting routes. It's always been unsatisfying that the great secret of the Time Lords, something called the Eye of Harmony, would be anything as paltry as a power source… and the thing is, really, that Miles, and indeed the EDAs at large, were inspired by the TVM's Eye motif to make vision essential to the essence of the Time Lords, and this carries over into the depiction of the FP Great Houses. We are dealing with entities who maintain history via the Observer Effect; by looking at it. It would, IMO, border on the absurd if there was structure at the heart of their society called the Eye of Harmony, and it wasn't that through which they maintain the Web of Time. The Homeworld has a great Eye, and with it, see the universe into submission. It writes itself. Notably, in The TV Movie we do see the Master and Chang Lee using the Eye in Dr Who's TARDIS to look at past and current events. And the Eye as depicted there is much more the mysterious, mystical crater one would expect of the Caldera than the depictions seen elsewhere. Mind, I don't think it's anything as straightforward as the Caldera being intended to “just” be the Eye. But I do think the Caldera primarily took on the role and purpose that the Eye had in the Milesian, EDAs understanding of Gallifrey. (As far as canon-welding goes, I've personally kicked around an idea that the Eye of Harmony is a dual structure, the blazing white pupil of the collapsed Qqaba balanced inside the black, circular sclera of the Caldera, their energies finely engineered to form a stable, harmonious equilibrium.) Incidentally, it's anyone's guess how it relates to any of this, but mark in the Anchoring of the Thread entry of the Book ( oh, that's right, we were talking about the Book):
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Post by doctornolonger on Sept 14, 2022 20:26:59 GMT
And if it's heavily defended, how did the four lieutenants get to the abomination's graveyard without its connivance? Options as I see them, ranked from (in my opinion) least to most interesting: - The lieutenants bribed the guards, or they were the guards, or they snuck in somehow.
- There's another caldera besides the one on the Homeworld, and the lieutenants used it to access the graveyard timeline.
- We're told the graveyard must be from another timeline, and therefore accessible only through the caldera, because "very few House agents are thought to have come into direct contact with the Yssgaroth during the first great War in Heaven" and (unspoken assumption) all House contact with the Yssgaroth happened in the past. So … maybe one of these assumptions is wrong, somehow!
More seriously, is the Shadow Dance from the comics? I think it's mentioned (or even depicted!) in the second issue briefly, but I was going off of the description of a Godfather's "oriental dance" in the Gregorian Compact entry. The Caldera is what the Faction Paradox universe has instead of the Matrix. It occupies the same space in the culture of the Great Houses that the Matrix does in the culture of the Time Lords. So why can't it be instead of the Matrix and the Eye of Harmony? Very well put.
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leahhh
Little Sibling
Posts: 36
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Post by leahhh on Sept 14, 2022 20:34:39 GMT
We are dealing with entities who maintain history via the Observer Effect; by looking at it. It would, IMO, border on the absurd if there was structure at the heart of their society called the Eye of Harmony, and it wasn't that through which they maintain the Web of Time. The Homeworld has a great Eye, and with it, see the universe into submission. It writes itself This is pretty compelling, I must admit. Maybe I just need to get more comfortable with the FP Homeworld not looking exactly like the televised Gallifrey.
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Post by bumbles on Sept 14, 2022 20:35:54 GMT
Re: the four elemental - two of those Elementals ARE members of that bloodline (the Man with the Wigg Rosette is the Master/War King), the others are a de facto Imperator (and member of House Dvora -Romana) and a random element (the Minister of Chance - someone who was severed from his Houseworld connection). Not to clog up the thread with non-directly- BotW-related lore talk, but I disagree that the Woman with Long Blond Hair is necessarily Romana! The latest-known Post-War Romana in the EDAs isn't a blonde at all. The most obvious candidate for who Parkin intended the Woman to be is, I think, Larna. It's anyone's guess what House Larna is from, of course. (And the Emperor is of course Dr Who, who I don't think is part of House Dvora at all.) IIRC Larna was the same house as the Doctor. It could also be Iris Wildthyme (who at the time looked like Barbarella). Iris is from an entirely different universe altogether.
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Post by bumbles on Sept 14, 2022 20:39:39 GMT
And if it's heavily defended, how did the four lieutenants get to the abomination's graveyard without its connivance? Options as I see them, ranked from (in my opinion) least to most interesting: - The lieutenants bribed the guards, or they were the guards, or they snuck in somehow.
- There's another caldera besides the one on the Homeworld, and the lieutenants used it to access the graveyard timeline.
- We're told the graveyard must be from another timeline, and therefore accessible only through the caldera, because "very few House agents are thought to have come into direct contact with the Yssgaroth during the first great War in Heaven" and (unspoken assumption) all House contact with the Yssgaroth happened in the past. So … maybe one of these assumptions is wrong, somehow!
More seriously, is the Shadow Dance from the comics? I think it's mentioned (or even depicted!) in the second issue briefly, but I was going off of the description of a Godfather's "oriental dance" in the Gregorian Compact entry. “Oriental” is also shorthand for “foreign” or “different” in that era. The dance could have been the Nutbush or the Macarena (which…. Given the Faction’s general mockery of (other people’s) rituals and statuses quo…. It most likely was).
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Post by doctornolonger on Sept 14, 2022 21:25:01 GMT
I really enjoyed this week's entries. I find it interesting that, despite the fact that they are in alphabetical order, the order still feels very natural with related entries grouped. Yeah, it's really interesting. Despite planning all this out, I was still surprised to find "The Imperator" this week rather than in the upcoming "History of the Homeworld" or "Houses and Orders" sections. The links were there for us to jump from "Eleven-Day Empire" straight to "London (Eighteenth Century)", but we went on what felt like an extended detour instead. There's real storytelling purpose here. While I'm on the topic of the Imperator, by the way, some low-hanging Who references: Gee, I wonder who the unnamed fourth is!
The Faction Paradox website's timeline, Crimes Against History, suggested explicitly that these flaws might have arisen as a retro-shock of the coming War. (The retro-shock concept was mentioned in a similar context in the "Faction Paradox" entry last week.) This explanation works well enough in a FP context, but if we take a step back and look at this as a piece of the DW puzzle, a tempting alternative pops up, courtesy of Lungbarrow! Flawed biodata in the breeding engines, going back a long long time… One small thing that stuck out for me was the concept of non-linear cultures. How would these operate? I would assume that they would use time travel so much that any concept of a linear order is meaningless but it is explicitly stated that these cultures often don't gain access to time travel. I've been told by Christians (YMMV) and Heideggerians (YMMV!) that the ancient Greeks had two words for "time", chronos and kairos. Supposedly chronos referred to linear time as we know it today, whereas kairos reflected a more cyclical view, one which dominated humanity for most of history, when time was measured in sunsets, seasons, reigns, and generations rather than clocks, time zones, and "global number go up" AD/BC years. In the same way that I, with my programmer brain, see "September 2022" as a label for a unique unit of time – the unit we're in right now – which will never repeat, our ancestors saw "September" as not merely a label but a unit in and of itself, which repeated throughout history. Or so the story goes. Google offers me this article as representative of discussion on this topic. So maybe that's what a nonlinear culture is like, and therefore it's no coincidence that the higher powers made first contact with modern humanity just as John Harrison was perfecting his sea clock, the marine chronometer. (As opposed to the marine kairometer, I suppose.) Aditya Bidikar's short story "Dharmayuddha" from Burning with Optimism's Flames seems to point in a similar direction, drawing from Hindu rather than Greek cultural background, with its depiction of the passing of the Yuga Cycle. … or, for a more grounded answer, the Osirian Court in The True History of Faction Paradox has a linear timeline, but it's not linear with our timeline. Lawrence Miles does an excellent job depicting it, even if it turns the flow of cause and effect into a small headache at times. So maybe that's what the writers were imagining!
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