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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 20, 2022 1:34:56 GMT
But behind every great Grandfather is a great Grandmother.
We have, it is worth noting, precious little evidence that the original Grandfather was in fact a man and not a woman. They erased themself from history, after all. How would we know? The “he/him” pronouns are just an assumption based on their adopted title; but Grandfather in Homeworld culture is just the term for the founder of a bloodline. Nowhere is it stated that a woman who founded a bloodline would be a Grandmother instead. And in the audios, both of Morlock's attempts to create a “new” Grandfather involved stitching the shadow to young women. Food for thought.
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Post by garyshots on Dec 20, 2022 11:30:53 GMT
I like it. The Grandfather is referred to as "him" in the bit of Christmas on a Rational Planet quoted in Week Eight. But presumably he could regenerate. (Would his arm not grow back? Maybe not. It's a symbolic severance, deeper than flesh and bone, and his severedness might be a far more fundamental part of his self-image than mere pronouns.)
While "Behind every great Grandfather is a great Grandmother." has an undeniable ring to it, in the sober light of day I'm not convinced that it means anything. Looking again at Westminster and House of Lords, both mention the axes (land to river, Speaker's Chair to Lord Chancellor's Woolsack), and the latter specifies that whatever sits in the Lords should be the balance, the opposite, of the Faction elders, and have the power to overrule them.
The subsequent paragraph about the loa is an alternative speculation, and indeed it doesn't make a lot of sense that the Grandfather apparently represents both the Commons and half of the Lords. I wonder if "Temporal and Spiritual Lords" is just a weak joke about Time Lords. But what would Spirit Lords be? The Faction's equivalent of Matrix Lords? Or the Celestis?
When Anastasia comes out, she's soaked in blood, though she's only missing one finger. Where did all that blood come from? ("Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him?")
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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 20, 2022 12:47:47 GMT
But what would Spirit Lords be? The Faction's equivalent of Matrix Lords? Or the Celestis? Or perhaps a certain equal-and-opposite force to the Great Houses, similarly known for the fact that its existence can clearly be inferred from context even though it is otherwise extremely mysterious?
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Post by garyshots on Dec 20, 2022 21:19:40 GMT
Enemy Lords, you reckon? If the House of Lords were populated with Enemy renegades it would certainly balance out the Commons, which seems to consist largely of Great Houses renegades.
What would this mean for the ahistory of the Faction? Was the Grandfather in touch with Enemy malcontents from the beginning? Did he co-found the Faction with the Grandmother the top Enemy renegade who sits on the Lord Chancellor's woolsack? Is he actually the junior partner, and that's why she can overrule him? Are we supposed to be reminded of treacherous Chancellors of the Great Houses like Goth and Borusa?
Still thinking about temporal. It can mean within time, as opposed to eternity. Could the spiritual here mean non-linear time?
Googling "Grandmother Paradox" takes me, amongst other interesting places, to this piece on Octavia Butler's Kindred, which, yes, I own but haven't read yet. No, not even the famous (?) first line: "I lost an arm on my last trip home. My left arm." Mere happenstance, of course.
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Dec 20, 2022 22:27:32 GMT
Enemy Lords, you reckon? If the House of Lords were populated with Enemy renegades it would certainly balance out the Commons, which seems to consist largely of Great Houses renegades.
What would this mean for the ahistory of the Faction? Was the Grandfather in touch with Enemy malcontents from the beginning? Did he co-found the Faction with the Grandmother the top Enemy renegade who sits on the Lord Chancellor's woolsack? Is he actually the junior partner, and that's why she can overrule him? Are we supposed to be reminded of treacherous Chancellors of the Great Houses like Goth and Borusa?
Still thinking about temporal. It can mean within time, as opposed to eternity. Could the spiritual here mean non-linear time?
Well we do know that the Enemy are not necessarily to most unified of organisations and some have gone renegade in the past (well what from our perspective could be the past) so I don’t see why a Faction Ally could not exist. Of course as with all things regarding the Enemy this is just speculation (I do wonder if we will ever figure out the identity of the Enemy and if so would anyone confirm it if we did?)
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Post by garyshots on Dec 20, 2022 22:38:28 GMT
(I do wonder if we will ever figure out the identity of the Enemy and if so would anyone confirm it if we did?) Well, the identity of the Enemy in the EDAs is confirmed in The Book of the Enemy, or as near as dammit.
I don't think the identity of the New Enemy in The Book of the War is all that ineffable. I expect us to arrive at a broad consensus by the end, whenever that may chance to be. Although it would be funny if PPH or Jonathan Dennis or an unexpected lurking author popped in to confirm only that we were wrong.
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Post by doctornolonger on Dec 21, 2022 14:47:22 GMT
Although it would be funny if PPH or Jonathan Dennis or an unexpected lurking author popped in to confirm only that we were wrong. I've written before about the constraints that writers for The Book of the Enemy were given for the Enemy; I'd be very curious to know if contributors to The Book of the War were given similar guidelines – assuming, of course, that Miles didn't just tell them to ignore it and then added all the hints in editing!
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Bongo50
Little Sibling
Currently reading The Book of the War
Posts: 44
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Post by Bongo50 on Dec 30, 2022 18:02:54 GMT
This set of entries were pretty interesting. Cousin Octavia and Cousin Anastasia have a tragic romance of Shakespearian majesty That's the right word! The shadow-duel on the malachite table evidently made a deep impression on my tender soul the first time round, but I don't remember the parallels with Macbeth at all. Of course the Unkindnesses play the role of the Witches. The first time Macbeth Anastasia and Banquo Nadim meet them, they plant the seed that leads Macbeth Anastasia to ruin. Then Macbeth Anastasia has Banquo Nadim murdered. When she goes back for a second helping of prophecy, they use Birnam Wood the Red Burial led by no man of woman born the witch to lull her into a false sense of security, so she doesn't see Macduff Octavia coming. I also noticed this. It was quite fun to notice and try and piece together. The Thirteen-Day Republic seems to me like a bit of a commentary on communism. The fact that the Republic was supposed to have a flat structure but ended up with Anastasia as an undeniable leader seems to echo the way a lot of communist regimes have gone. I find it ironic how the leader of this communist-esque revolution was someone who almost died (if it wasn't for the Faction) at the hands of one. The entry on removal of members mentions that those who are twice and thrice removed are often punished by "bizare self-murders". Moreover, the end of the entry on the Battle of Valentine's Day mentions how the Faction "usually encourages its members to punish themselves". What would either of these entail? How do you encourage someone to muder themselves? Does it mean driving them to suicide? The use of "encourages" in the second quote suggests to me that members are at least somewhat willingly punishing themselves. The only thing I can think of is that the Faction leaders have some form of control over the lower members. While a bit different, the entry on witch-blood mentions that the Faction sculpt recruits to their requirements. This certainly suggests to me some form of control. However, if the Faction leaders do have control over their members, surely they'd be able to prevent scenarios such as the Thirteen-Day Republic before they even occur? Is this explained or elaborated on anywhere else? The only thing I could think of regarding the occupents of the House of Lords feels to me that it is not the intention, but the Celestis, who refer to themselves as Lords, were previously members of the Great Houses. The Celestis having the power to overule the Empire's House of Commons doesn't feel right to me, though, so it's probably just coincidental. The entry on the Thirteen-Day Republic talks about how the change in calender happened all over the world. This means that there are tons of presumably unclaimed missing days. I feel like there has to be some potential here. Another thing to note is that the Faction bought their missing 11 days off George II via the Greogorian Compact. However, no equivelant process for the Republic is mentioned. This could be representative of the more anarchic nature of the Republic. Finally, the end of the entry on witch-blood mentions that "it has nothing to do with actual witchcraft whatsoever". This implies the existance of actual witchcraft. What could this be refering to? Is it something we've seen so far? I personally feel that the type of stuff witch-bloods can do is exactly the sort of thing that could be interpreted as witchcraft. Is this a case of the Book dropping a small red herring to through us off the trail? If so, for what gain? Labyrinths looks pretty interesting and I look forawrd to starting on it soon.
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Dec 30, 2022 18:32:26 GMT
This set of entries were pretty interesting. That's the right word! The shadow-duel on the malachite table evidently made a deep impression on my tender soul the first time round, but I don't remember the parallels with Macbeth at all. Of course the Unkindnesses play the role of the Witches. The first time Macbeth Anastasia and Banquo Nadim meet them, they plant the seed that leads Macbeth Anastasia to ruin. Then Macbeth Anastasia has Banquo Nadim murdered. When she goes back for a second helping of prophecy, they use Birnam Wood the Red Burial led by no man of woman born the witch to lull her into a false sense of security, so she doesn't see Macduff Octavia coming. I also noticed this. It was quite fun to notice and try and piece together. The Thirteen-Day Republic seems to me like a bit of a commentary on communism. The fact that the Republic was supposed to have a flat structure but ended up with Anastasia as an undeniable leader seems to echo the way a lot of communist regimes have gone. I find it ironic how the leader of this communist-esque revolution was someone who almost died (if it wasn't for the Faction) at the hands of one. The entry on removal of members mentions that those who are twice and thrice removed are often punished by "bizare self-murders". Moreover, the end of the entry on the Battle of Valentine's Day mentions how the Faction "usually encourages its members to punish themselves". What would either of these entail? How do you encourage someone to muder themselves? Does it mean driving them to suicide? The use of "encourages" in the second quote suggests to me that members are at least somewhat willingly punishing themselves. The only thing I can think of is that the Faction leaders have some form of control over the lower members. While a bit different, the entry on witch-blood mentions that the Faction sculpt recruits to their requirements. This certainly suggests to me some form of control. However, if the Faction leaders do have control over their members, surely they'd be able to prevent scenarios such as the Thirteen-Day Republic before they even occur? Is this explained or elaborated on anywhere else? The only thing I could think of regarding the occupents of the House of Lords feels to me that it is not the intention, but the Celestis, who refer to themselves as Lords, were previously members of the Great Houses. The Celestis having the power to overule the Empire's House of Commons doesn't feel right to me, though, so it's probably just coincidental. The entry on the Thirteen-Day Republic talks about how the change in calender happened all over the world. This means that there are tons of presumably unclaimed missing days. I feel like there has to be some potential here. Another thing to note is that the Faction bought their missing 11 days off George II via the Greogorian Compact. However, no equivelant process for the Republic is mentioned. This could be representative of the more anarchic nature of the Republic. Finally, the end of the entry on witch-blood mentions that "it has nothing to do with actual witchcraft whatsoever". This implies the existance of actual witchcraft. What could this be refering to? Is it something we've seen so far? I personally feel that the type of stuff witch-bloods can do is exactly the sort of thing that could be interpreted as witchcraft. Is this a case of the Book dropping a small red herring to through us off the trail? If so, for what gain? Labyrinths looks pretty interesting and I look forawrd to starting on it soon. We see one character to commit one of these self murders in Alien Bodies when one of the members is persuaded by an emissary of the Grandfather to kill go back in time and murder them selves as a child. This is later retconed loosely by the implication that most Faction Members feel guilt about failing the family and thus commit these self murders willingly as self punishment is expected by the faction. Thus it could be interpreted that the Emissary is just a Loa summoned up by the individual to give him the last little push.
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Post by Aristide Twain on Dec 30, 2022 18:47:28 GMT
Finally, the end of the entry on witch-blood mentions that "it has nothing to do with actual witchcraft whatsoever". This implies the existance of actual witchcraft. What could this be refering to? Is it something we've seen so far? I personally feel that the type of stuff witch-bloods can do is exactly the sort of thing that could be interpreted as witchcraft. Is this a case of the Book dropping a small red herring to throw us off the trail? If so, for what gain? Strictly speaking, this might simply mean that most people who claim to practice witchcraft (as they do in the real world) are not witch-blood-holders, and v ice versa that most witch-blood-holders do not call themselves witches. It does not necessarily mean that "actual witchcraft" works. Either way, I am inclined to think that the intended distinction is between witch-blood, which is simply something you're born with, and the idea of witch craft, i.e. a set of practices and rituals which anyone could theoretically pick up and use effectively. Note how the opening of the Witch-Blood entry insists on the fact that people with witch-blood have “a natural, untrained ability” for temporal manipulation, a “raw instinct”: the very opposite of a “craft”. In this sense, the Faction's own rituals are arguably “witchcraft”, even though, of course, not all Faction recruits have witch-blood — we learn here that the Faction are actually wary of recruiting people with witch-blood, and Justine is specifically pointed out as mildly special for possessing it in the opening two-parter of the Season 1 audios. If so, we should still understand the claim that it has “nothing to do with actual witchcraft whatsoever” as somewhat hyperbolic snobbery on the part of those who see themselves as 'real' witches: natural instinct or not, witch-blood-holders' abilities do tap into the same forces as rituals, and as Justine demonstrates, give them an edge if they do attempt the rituals on top of it, so it doesn't exactly have “nothing whatsoever” to do with witchcraft, even if it's not precisely the same thing.
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Bongo50
Little Sibling
Currently reading The Book of the War
Posts: 44
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Post by Bongo50 on Dec 30, 2022 18:56:34 GMT
Finally, the end of the entry on witch-blood mentions that "it has nothing to do with actual witchcraft whatsoever". This implies the existance of actual witchcraft. What could this be refering to? Is it something we've seen so far? I personally feel that the type of stuff witch-bloods can do is exactly the sort of thing that could be interpreted as witchcraft. Is this a case of the Book dropping a small red herring to throw us off the trail? If so, for what gain? Strictly speaking, this might simply mean that most people who claim to practice witchcraft (as they do in the real world) are not witch-blood-holders, and v ice versa that most witch-blood-holders do not call themselves witches. It does not necessarily mean that "actual witchcraft" works. Either way, I am inclined to think that the intended distinction is between witch-blood, which is simply something you're born with, and the idea of witch craft, i.e. a set of practices and rituals which anyone could theoretically pick up and use effectively. Note how the opening of the Witch-Blood entry insists on the fact that people with witch-blood have “a natural, untrained ability” for temporal manipulation, a “raw instinct”: the very opposite of a “craft”. In this sense, the Faction's own rituals are arguably “witchcraft”, even though, of course, not all Faction recruits have witch-blood — we learn here that the Faction are actually wary of recruiting people with witch-blood, and Justine is specifically pointed out as mildly special for possessing it in the opening two-parter of the Season 1 audios. If so, we should still understand the claim that it has “nothing to do with actual witchcraft whatsoever” as somewhat hyperbolic snobbery on the part of those who see themselves as 'real' witches: natural instinct or not, witch-blood-holders' abilities do tap into the same forces as rituals, and as Justine demonstrates, give them an edge if they do attempt the rituals on top of it, so it doesn't exactly have “nothing whatsoever” to do with witchcraft, even if it's not precisely the same thing. Interesting and very good points. In this way of reading things, it would seem to suggest that the writer(s) of the Book (in-universe) practise witchcraft. Does this perhaps provide a hint as to this writer? Perhaps its (a member of) the Faction? I've given absolutely no thought as to how this would work with other bits of the Book. Are there any other hints either in favour of or against this idea?
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GodfatherPixel
Little Sibling
Something is brewing in Macoute's kitchen...
Posts: 48
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Post by GodfatherPixel on Dec 30, 2022 19:08:14 GMT
Strictly speaking, this might simply mean that most people who claim to practice witchcraft (as they do in the real world) are not witch-blood-holders, and v ice versa that most witch-blood-holders do not call themselves witches. It does not necessarily mean that "actual witchcraft" works. Either way, I am inclined to think that the intended distinction is between witch-blood, which is simply something you're born with, and the idea of witch craft, i.e. a set of practices and rituals which anyone could theoretically pick up and use effectively. Note how the opening of the Witch-Blood entry insists on the fact that people with witch-blood have “a natural, untrained ability” for temporal manipulation, a “raw instinct”: the very opposite of a “craft”. In this sense, the Faction's own rituals are arguably “witchcraft”, even though, of course, not all Faction recruits have witch-blood — we learn here that the Faction are actually wary of recruiting people with witch-blood, and Justine is specifically pointed out as mildly special for possessing it in the opening two-parter of the Season 1 audios. If so, we should still understand the claim that it has “nothing to do with actual witchcraft whatsoever” as somewhat hyperbolic snobbery on the part of those who see themselves as 'real' witches: natural instinct or not, witch-blood-holders' abilities do tap into the same forces as rituals, and as Justine demonstrates, give them an edge if they do attempt the rituals on top of it, so it doesn't exactly have “nothing whatsoever” to do with witchcraft, even if it's not precisely the same thing. Interesting and very good points. In this way of reading things, it would seem to suggest that the writer(s) of the Book (in-universe) practise witchcraft. Does this perhaps provide a hint as to this writer? Perhaps its (a member of) the Faction? I've given absolutely no thought as to how this would work with other bits of the Book. Are there any other hints either in favour of or against this idea? A character known as the Blood Witch is later introduced in A Romance in Twelve Parts. She appears to be a member of the Faction as she is shown wearing a bone mask and her "witchcraft" resembles voodoo rituals. However, she is from outside of "our world" and gains access through harnessing the power of stories.
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