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Post by Aristide Twain on Nov 15, 2022 7:17:52 GMT
Well, "it" doesn't really fit posthumanity or the timeships. It seems likely that it refers to One... which means we have no idea what it refers to. Surely the obvious possibility is that "it" is the Enemy, and the Doctor is asking why the Enemy hates the Houses anyway? I can't very well see how it can be about 'One' if 'One' is present. |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
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Post by Anastasia on Nov 15, 2022 18:09:31 GMT
Well, "it" doesn't really fit posthumanity or the timeships. It seems likely that it refers to One... which means we have no idea what it refers to. Surely the obvious possibility is that "it" is the Enemy, and the Doctor is asking why the Enemy hates the Houses anyway? I can't very well see how it can be about 'One' if 'One' is present. Why do we think the Doctor Renegades is referring to the Houses when they say “us”? Perhaps this Renegade has long left the Houses. A Renegade, they are no longer part of what they once where they have renounced it. So perhaps they are referring to something else. Perhaps the Us is the Renegades of the Renegade with us referring to their past selves? |
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Post by Aristide Twain on Nov 15, 2022 18:22:23 GMT
Why do we think the Doctor Renegades is referring to the Houses when they say “us”? I shudder to bring up a Steven Moffat text, but see also the Doctor attempting to protest "I'm a Time Lord, yes, but I'm one of the nice ones" and Cass not having it for a minute — perhaps our Renegade isn't happy to be lumped in with their kind by the Enemy, but, nevertheless, they are. That's the whole point, isn't it? The Enemy Reps have captured a Renegade to prod at and talk to and get to know in expectation of the coming War, so it must be the case that they see the Renegade as a reasonable representative for the Houses. |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Nov 15, 2022 18:57:03 GMT
Why do we think the Doctor Renegades is referring to the Houses when they say “us”? I shudder to bring up a Steven Moffat text, but see also the Doctor attempting to protest "I'm a Time Lord, yes, but I'm one of the nice ones" and Cass not having it for a minute — perhaps our Renegade isn't happy to be lumped in with their kind by the Enemy, but, nevertheless, they are. That's the whole point, isn't it? The Enemy Reps have captured a Renegade to prod at and talk to and get to know in expectation of the coming War, so it must be the case that they see the Renegade as a reasonable representative for the Houses. Well if we assume (and this is a big assumption) that the Renegade and the Doctor in Alien Bodies are the same Doctor (if not the same incarnation they same Order of lives) then according to the Doctor in Alien Bodies he is one of the Enemy, depending on where you stand? I don’t know if this has any baring on this but to me it seems to possibly imply that the Us is not quite the Great Houses. And The It may not be the Enemy? perhaps (this a very big perhaps) we had them the wrong way around. The It are the Houses and the Us are the Enemy (of course I do not believe the Doctor is definitely the Enemy but they are almost 100% linked to the Enemy in some way) of course I may be straying to close the Who lore for this to be valid. |
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Post by Aristide Twain on Nov 15, 2022 19:44:55 GMT
Well if we assume (and this is a big assumption) that the Renegade and the Doctor in Alien Bodies are the same Doctor (if not the same incarnation they same Order of lives) then according to the Doctor in Alien Bodies he is one of the Enemy, depending on where you stand? Indeed. But we don't know when or how the Doctor sort-of-joined the Enemy's side… and the Rivera Manuscript does not say what happened to the Renegade after his praxis trip. Hmmm. Could it be that One actually answered the "Why does it hate us?" question and the Doctor, to his surprise, found the answer compelling? |
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Post by garyshots on Nov 15, 2022 20:04:26 GMT
The Rivera Manuscript is such a tantalisingly subjective part of the Book, which is why we're still brainstorming it decades on. My interpretation is that the Doctor asks the presumed Enemy interrogator "Why does it hate us?" and he's asking about One. He's shocked to learn that there's an entity hostile to the Great Houses living in the Matrix/the Homeworld's sun. And I think the "praxis fugue" is the Matrix. I don't pretend to have a firm idea of how this is possible at the moment, unless it's something to do with this idea of humanity being the original Great Houses and presumably having their own Matrix.
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Post by garyshots on Nov 20, 2022 23:15:28 GMT
The Rivera Manuscript is such a tantalisingly subjective part of the Book, which is why we're still brainstorming it decades on. My interpretation is that the Doctor asks the presumed Enemy interrogator "Why does it hate us?" and he's asking about One. He's shocked to learn that there's an entity hostile to the Great Houses living in the Matrix/the Homeworld's sun. And I think the "praxis fugue" is the Matrix. I don't pretend to have a firm idea of how this is possible at the moment, unless it's something to do with this idea of humanity being the original Great Houses and presumably having their own Matrix.
Just to follow up on this train of thought: I think part of the intentional muddle of the Book is that the Great Houses have three enemies.
1. There's the Enemy from the EDAs. I assume this is who Compassion is talking about when she dismisses the Enemy as a distraction/nothing: hard to prove, but seems fitting given that they've been superseded already. We don't see much of these guys in the Book, probably because they've been overwritten by
2. The much more exciting and dangerous and sexually alluring new identity of the Enemy that has to do with humanity's aborted potential and so on and so forth. That's what the Book is about: setting up the Faction Paradox universe that's still in the future at this point. We haven't got there yet, but my cheating memory claims that we eventually see witness the birth of the new Enemy for ourselves. It's funny to think that one of the real world reasons for the fictional ghost point etc is clearly that Grandfather Loz wanted an in-universe explanation of why the future humans in Doctor Who are always so rubbish.
3. The enemy within. One, Lolita, whatever's lurking in the Homeworld's sun.
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leahhh
Little Sibling
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Post by leahhh on Nov 21, 2022 19:39:58 GMT
I can't very well see how it can be about 'One' if 'One' is present. But we don't know that this line is dialogue between the Renegade and One. We're told that it's an "aside in the manuscript" that seems to be an "interpolation about - or directed - at One". So it could be directed at One, in which case it's presumably not about One, but it could also be commentary by the manuscript author.
Why do we think the Doctor Renegades is referring to the Houses when they say “us”? Perhaps this Renegade has long left the Houses. I think this is a real possibility, given that this is the same group of entries that tells us about
Of course, if the "us" that "it" hates is posthumanity, all our ideas about what "it" is would need to be completely reworked (again)...
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Post by doctornolonger on Jan 26, 2024 15:11:06 GMT
While watching a silly Youtube video that touched on the Tardis Wiki's Rivera Manuscript page briefly, I realized that the Rivera Manuscript going missing then being "found behind a filing cabinet in the Library of Congress" is surely a reference to how Gareth Roberts misplaced the pitch for Christmas on a Rational Planet behind a filing cabinet, which resulted in a delay of several years before it was commissioned! It was mentioned in Andrew Hickey's interview. |
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quad
Little Sibling
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Post by quad on Jan 26, 2024 17:22:06 GMT
While watching a silly Youtube video that touched on the Tardis Wiki's Rivera Manuscript page briefly, I realized that the Rivera Manuscript going missing then being "found behind a filing cabinet in the Library of Congress" is surely a reference to how Gareth Roberts misplaced the pitch for Christmas on a Rational Planet behind a filing cabinet, which resulted in a delay of several years before it was commissioned! It was mentioned in Andrew Hickey's interview. Ha! Never picked up on that, good catch. Definitely one of my favourite pieces of FP-related trivia out there because of its sheer ridiculousness lol. |
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Post by Peterchu on Jan 26, 2024 19:04:49 GMT
Never knew about that. Are there any other fun bits of trivia?
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