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Post by bumbles on Sept 3, 2022 1:37:07 GMT
99 Bottle Universes on a Wall ... 99 Bottle Universes on a Wall..If one of those bottles should happen to fall, 98 bottle universes on the wall...
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Post by bumbles on Sept 3, 2022 1:39:29 GMT
Going very differently, but all culminating in the same glorious result of the Fall of the Homeworld. Think of it like Douglas Adams's final Hitchhiker's book, all possible Earths' timelines being made to converge into a singular point in possibility-space where it is finally cleanly atomised by the Vogons. I love this analogy. It’s all about the result, really. Sometimes you can reach the right answer with a not-quite-right method, you know? I do think there’s potential fun to be had with the various accounts of the War’s result. Imagine that there’s only one post-War universe, regardless of how we got to it. If person A (who experienced and the Time War) described their experiences to person B (who experienced The Ancestor Cell), would person B hear it as the events of and the Time War or would their perceptions/worldview filter the story to sound like The Ancestor Cell? People can look at the same event and take away different things. People can experience the same event and remember different things. One person remembers the Edifice, another remembers Tannis, a third person swears it really was a Yartek, back from the dead and wielding one almighty stick. And maybe they’re all right in a way. Or maybe it’s a bit more Heisenberg-y than all that. Because we’ve collectively gone and measured the position (Homeworld ded), we now can’t also measure the momentum (how it ded). A sort of mandala effect, but the memory is of a definitive history that has had a material effect on reality. |
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Post by miss//bearbrass on Sept 3, 2022 6:05:05 GMT
I love this analogy. It’s all about the result, really. Sometimes you can reach the right answer with a not-quite-right method, you know? I do think there’s potential fun to be had with the various accounts of the War’s result. Imagine that there’s only one post-War universe, regardless of how we got to it. If person A (who experienced and the Time War) described their experiences to person B (who experienced The Ancestor Cell), would person B hear it as the events of and the Time War or would their perceptions/worldview filter the story to sound like The Ancestor Cell? People can look at the same event and take away different things. People can experience the same event and remember different things. One person remembers the Edifice, another remembers Tannis, a third person swears it really was a Yartek, back from the dead and wielding one almighty stick. And maybe they’re all right in a way. Or maybe it’s a bit more Heisenberg-y than all that. Because we’ve collectively gone and measured the position (Homeworld ded), we now can’t also measure the momentum (how it ded). Perhaps it depends on which of the Houseworlds you’re on? Houseworld one? The war is against Ancestor Cells, and you go boom during a Faction Paradox invasion orchestrated by the Doctor. Houseworld 2? Daleks. Houseworld 3? War King and the invasion by Babwyn. Houseworld 4? Bad sun juju. Somehow AGAIN the Doctor is involved. Houseworld 5? Like the fifth wave, we don’t talk about Houseworld 5. Houseworld 6? War ongoing (With The Enemy who turns out to be …) Houseworld 7:At war. Houseworld 8? Mad Norwegian World. Houseworld 9? Obverse World. Hm, well my thinking is more one Houseworld, one War, but many many perceptions. A paraphrased Heisenberg uncertainty principle increasingly feels somehow right to me. Knowing the result prevents us from knowing how we got there. And in the absence of solid knowledge, as you speculated, the Mandela effect comes into play.
My notion of what the True War is is simple: the Enemy as it stands is a coalition of different powers, united in thinking that the Great Houses need toppling and the Anchoring needs undoing, but they all have different ideas of what to do with the universe after that, from those who want to replace the Houses and rule the universe their own way to the cosmic anarchists who want to return to the world of Irrationality. The True War is the War between the different factions of the Enemy, predicted to start once the primary War to unseat the Homeworld is won. A question whose answer might tie into this: is the T in "true War" capitalised in the original quote? I was under the impression it wasn't, which feels like it supports a notion of it being the same war with different phases. They're both the War, but one bit is the meaty bit that really counts.
It reminds me of the (arguably simplistic) notion of the Second Thirty Years War, which groups together World Wars I and II as a single conflict with a rather eventful intermission. So you could call it World Wars I and II or you could call it the Second Thirty Years War, just as you could call it the War (of unseating) and the t/True War (of resolving the succession) or you could just call it the War.
Perhaps, like the Second Thirty Years War model, the combined/single War model even comes complete with its own uneasy intermission of a power vacuum that then presumably gets punctured by the true Seventh Head speaking.
I'm not sure I have a solid idea of what the Seventh Head is. But I will tell you one thing: I like the idea that the Head of the Presidency actually doesn't count — it never actually spoke by itself, the note in its teeth was from somebody/something else! — but many people in-universe who know the prophecy do count it. And somewhere down the line this will cause a misunderstanding of cosmic proportion when the Sixth Head speaks and, by the mistaken count, is believed to be the Seventh Head by various factions who will thus believe the War's end and the coming of the True War to be at hand, when neither is coming just yet. Semi-tongue-in-cheek question: does this mean we have a Seventh Head and a t/True Seventh Head? |
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PI9090
Cousin
I was loomed this way.
Posts: 91
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Post by PI9090 on Sept 4, 2022 23:33:24 GMT
I believe True War has been referenced several times (I may be wrong) in that it will start after Last contact (in which the identity of the Enemy, should they have one, will be revealed) Depends on what you mean by, "Last Contact". If you mean the unpublished, "Enemy of the Daleks" then it's one of the numerous galactic Dalek wars, (a continuity nightmare in itself) but why would Morlock, (although he never actually made that prophecy in reality) know about a, "vuglar" space war that has no relevance for time aware/active powers? What I've found so far: I don't think we “know” anything of the sort. I am not saying this is necessarily what I believe all the time, but just now, I was taking the view that there is no such thing as “the Enemy” proper that everyone else is just Reps for; that “the Enemy” is the coalition of disparate powers, from Mammoths to Spiders to T. memeticus to entities too mindbending to name; or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say, that the Enemy is the process of rebelling against the Great Houses itself, whoever happens to be implementing it. I hold no excessive ill-will to people who try to construe the LGTW as happening after, and separately from, the WiH (after all, my good friend Hunter has an idea along those lines) — but me, my every aesthetic sense rebels against it. I agree that an outright victory for either side isn't plausible, (the destruction of multiple Gallifreys aswell as the continued existance of Gallifrey 6 and the protocols). Personally I've always gotten the feeling the .S.W.i.H. just kind of fizzled out rather then having a formal ending, (maybe without the instigator/coordinating leadership and the rapid rise of the Daleks the, "reps" had to/decided to stop?) I have the barebones an idea but I need time to work on it. I'll wait until after the readthrough before answering that. Given the direction of travel I don't think we have a choice in that regard all we can do is hopefully keep it from getting too bad. I'll have to reread, "The Eyeless" and, "Ancestor Cell" before commenting on this. Friends I am forced to report that you are reinventing the bottle universes. You do not want to walk down that path! Agreed. Even Mr Miles realised that was a bad idea. From: www.meshyfish.com/~roo/rootimeline6.html It goes into much more detail then just this segment. I'm in no position to challenge any of that yet, (there's bits I disagree with), it seems to fit with Mr Butcher Jones's apparent idea that the ruined Gallifrey we see in the Chibnall era might be one of 6's cloneworlds. |
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Anastasia
Cousin
Liberating the oppressed of the Houses and toppling regimes.
Posts: 154
Preferred Pronouns: She/They
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Post by Anastasia on Sept 5, 2022 6:36:44 GMT
Houseworld one? The war is against Ancestor Cells, and you go boom during a Faction Paradox invasion orchestrated by the Doctor. Houseworld 2? Daleks. Houseworld 3? War King and the invasion by Babwyn. Houseworld 4? Bad sun juju. Somehow AGAIN the Doctor is involved. Houseworld 5? Like the fifth wave, we don’t talk about Houseworld 5. Houseworld 6? War ongoing (With The Enemy who turns out to be …) Houseworld 7:At war. Houseworld 8? Mad Norwegian World. Houseworld 9? Obverse World. But we can not know how many Homeworld’s their are, after all is it not suggested that each of the clone worlds promptly forgot about being a Clone World and then created a bunch of Clone Worlds of itself? Who themselves promptly also forgot and then cloned themselves and so on and so? It would be more accurate to say that their are 9^n Homeworlds in which n is the amount of times the Homeworld has been duplicated, and what about the enigmatic 10th Homeworld mentioned in “The Taking of Planet 5” that was destroyed by the Enemy (or destroyed because of the Enemy depending on your perception). Perhaps that 10th Homeworld was the original? And even Clone in an inaccurate term. How can a World be a Clone World when it has a full history? It is like saying one of the Cwejen is a Clone. No I believe the term Clone World is inaccurate, they are more like an Army of One composed of Planets instead of People. And who’s to say they are not all the Original Homeworld, split into a infinity of shards? Perhaps on one of them (or all of them) something went wrong and something emerged which could threaten the Homeworld’s, something which was equal unprepared? But perhaps not. |
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Post by bumbles on Sept 5, 2022 8:52:05 GMT
Houseworld one? The war is against Ancestor Cells, and you go boom during a Faction Paradox invasion orchestrated by the Doctor. Houseworld 2? Daleks. Houseworld 3? War King and the invasion by Babwyn. Houseworld 4? Bad sun juju. Somehow AGAIN the Doctor is involved. Houseworld 5? Like the fifth wave, we don’t talk about Houseworld 5. Houseworld 6? War ongoing (With The Enemy who turns out to be …) Houseworld 7:At war. Houseworld 8? Mad Norwegian World. Houseworld 9? Obverse World. But we can not know how many Homeworld’s their are, after all is it not suggested that each of the clone worlds promptly forgot about being a Clone World and then created a bunch of Clone Worlds of itself? Who themselves promptly also forgot and then cloned themselves and so on and so? It would be more accurate to say that their are 9^n Homeworlds in which n is the amount of times the Homeworld has been duplicated, and what about the enigmatic 10th Homeworld mentioned in “The Taking of Planet 5” that was destroyed by the Enemy (or destroyed because of the Enemy depending on your perception). Perhaps that 10th Homeworld was the original? And even Clone in an inaccurate term. How can a World be a Clone World when it has a full history? It is like saying one of the Cwejen is a Clone. No I believe the term Clone World is inaccurate, they are more like an Army of One composed of Planets instead of People. And who’s to say they are not all the Original Homeworld, split into a infinity of shards? Perhaps on one of them (or all of them) something went wrong and something emerged which could threaten the Homeworld’s, something which was equal unprepared? But perhaps not. There’s an episode of Rick and Morty that does that… they promptly declare war on every other version of themselves.. |
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Post by bumbles on Sept 5, 2022 8:53:01 GMT
Romana calls herself “War Queen of the Nine Gallifreys”, I think that’s where I got the “nine Homeworlds” from.
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Post by doctornolonger on Sept 5, 2022 11:08:59 GMT
Depends on what you mean by, "Last Contact". If you mean the unpublished, "Enemy of the Daleks" then it's one of the numerous galactic Dalek wars, (a continuity nightmare in itself) but why would Morlock, (although he never actually made that prophecy in reality) know about a, "vuglar" space war that has no relevance for time aware/active powers? Au contraire! The war in Enemy of the Daleks is the War in Heaven, and in Lance Parkin’s EDAs “Last Contact” is the Time Lords’ term for the moment at which the War will be inevitable. The Daleks are only involved because they’re so certain that they’re the enemy. Spoiler alert: They’re wrong about that! In fact, their descendants have gone back in time and are trying their hardest to prevent the War, with the help of the Doctor’s father from Unnatural History… You’re quite right, however, that Morlock hasn’t mentioned it (yet). |
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Post by Ettolrahc Dvora on Jan 4, 2023 13:01:12 GMT
My notion of what the True War is is simple: the Enemy as it stands is a coalition of different powers, united in thinking that the Great Houses need toppling and the Anchoring needs undoing, but they all have different ideas of what to do with the universe after that, from those who want to replace the Houses and rule the universe their own way to the cosmic anarchists who want to return to the world of Irrationality. The True War is the War between the different factions of the Enemy, predicted to start once the primary War to unseat the Homeworld is won. I'm not sure I have a solid idea of what the Seventh Head is. But I will tell you one thing: I like the idea that the Head of the Presidency actually doesn't count — it never actually spoke by itself, the note in its teeth was from somebody/something else! — but many people in-universe who know the prophecy do count it. And somewhere down the line this will cause a misunderstanding of cosmic proportion when the Sixth Head speaks and, by the mistaken count, is believed to be the Seventh Head by various factions who will thus believe the War's end and the coming of the True War to be at hand, when neither is coming just yet. Any rate: Given the events on Dust, and their wider ramifications, could one of the heads be the third Doctor? I doubt it, or else Miles would have had him die by beheading… While we're on the topic of Who-related speculation on the Heads, one thing I'm not sure I've seen discussed before is that it's tempting, aesthetically if not literally, to connect this whole business of Heads and prophecies to the Empress's prophetic heads-on-pikes on Hyspero in The Scarlet Empress, and the allegorical idea that the Doctor himself essentially has the severed heads of his past incarnations chattering away in his head in a similar fashion. Ooh,I do really like your idea of the True War! Of course, (as far as I can tell) it totally contracts the post-War universe as seen in the EDAs and FP Comics, but that's a sacrifice I think is worthwhile. Perhaps FP will someday actually get to this point, and the tone of the entire series will shift... That'd potentially be quite controversial, but also amazing. No doubt there'd be tons of individual Sun Builders - or even small groups - because writers won't be able to stop themselves, but I also think that's fine and removing the Great Houses entirely would potentially be too much of a change. |
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